do animal companions have to do whatever trick you tell them to do or whatever you tell them to do with communicate with animals?
If you they know the trick or if you "push" them they should do it. There is no reason, why they wouldn't. Now if I were a DM and you gave suicidal orders for the sake of your amusement I might have your deity revoke your powers or at least some of them.
do animal companions have to do whatever trick you tell them to do or whatever you tell them to do with communicate with animals?
In 3.5 if the animal was trained and friendly to you they would perform it, unless it was something that put them directly into danger. If it didn't know the trick you had to push them via handle animal to do it. Also if it was your own companions (versus a random friendly animal like a bought/summoned steed) you got a +4 on any checks to push it.
In the handle animal skill section in the pathfinder core players book:
Handle an animal dc 10:this task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If it is wounded, has taken nonlethal or ability damage, the dc increases by 2.
It has an identical rule for pushing an animal to perform a trick it DOESN'T know but with a dc of 25.
Under "special" of the same skill it says that druid or ranger gains a +4 competence bonus on rolls for its animal. I assume that applies for a cleric with an animal as well. They also get extra tricks.
This only applies for animals with an intelligence of 1 or 2. If it has 3 int (which companions can get) I believe you can simply tell them what to do, and it can be fairly complicated. Just don't expect it to respond.
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I am in the process of combat training my wolf(i am playing a gnome). I used communicate with animals to tell it to let me ride it away from some guards. He said he wouldn't but would clear a path fro me to run behind.
First off wolves aren't mounts, it has to be trained to do so, but even then it's a wild animal, it might not take to that too well. You might have to work something out with your DM to make it something you can train it to do. Even so don't expect the Wolf to learn it right away, that is something that might take a while to train. Also if you expect to use it in the future as a semi-mount you might want to pick up some barding.
Also remember the Wolf is your "Companion" and not a "pet". In some sense you should treat it like an equal. Would you want your Wolf to ride you?
Just food for thought...
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Yeah that's what combat training is for. the d20pfsrd called it combat training/riding. I see no reason a wolf can't be ridden. I also don't see why a companion's thoughts come into play when asking them to do something. What if they don't want to heel?
The only reason a Wolf wouldn't want to be ridden, is if it didn't want to be ridden(they have personalities too), hence you would have to train it to do so. Handle Animal and Ride skills are a start, but maybe your Wolf sees itself as your equal and not some pet to be ridden...(maybe that's the way the DM sees it too). Without proper barding and a harness, you will have severe ride check penalties to stay mounted however. So don't forget to take that into consideration as well.
Just make sure to ask your DM what you will need to do so that you can ride you companion in the future, that way it becomes clear what steps you need to take. If he says you will never be able to, then it becomes an issue with your DM, that I have no advice for, except just pure stubborness on the DM's behalf.
Yeah that's what combat training is for. the d20pfsrd called it combat training/riding. I see no reason a wolf can't be ridden. I also don't see why a companion's thoughts come into play when asking them to do something. What if they don't want to heel?The only reason a Wolf wouldn't want to be ridden, is if it didn't want to be ridden(they have personalities too), hence you would have to train it to do so. Handle Animal and Ride skills are a start, but maybe your Wolf sees itself as your equal and not some pet to be ridden...(maybe that's the way the DM sees it too). Without proper barding and a harness, you will have severe ride check penalties to stay mounted however. So don't forget to take that into consideration as well.
Just make sure to ask your DM what you will need to do so that you can ride you companion in the future, that way it becomes clear what steps you need to take. If he says you will never be able to, then it becomes an issue with your DM, that I have no advice for, except just pure stubborness on the DM's behalf.
Animal companions are no better than any other animal in regards to the trained rules and being told what to do. If it knows the trick then it is supposed to do it. The DM is just being difficult. The only way I could see this being justified is if the player increased the animal's intelligence to 3 or better, which makes it sentient(might be the wrong word) by the rules, but in that case he could bypass the trouble of teaching it tricks since an intelligence of 3 allows something to understand a language. He should just keep in mind that 3 is still a low intelligence and to keep instructions simple.
I am in the process of combat training my wolf(i am playing a gnome). I used communicate with animals to tell it to let me ride it away from some guards. He said he wouldn't but would clear a path fro me to run behind.
The animal has an intelligence of 2. It can't formulate plans any more than another animal could. Your DM is just ignoring the rules.
To be clear, the animal does not yet have combat training. But it was my understanding that a trick is to teach an animal a command, not the ability to do something. If I use speak with animals to tell it what to do, I should not need a trick at all. I agree with your intelligence point, however. Also I forgot to mention that he had me roll to push the animal. I also disagree that that was necessary.
To ride an animal that hasn't been trained definitely would require a handle animal check to push it. If it has been trained however only extremes should require pushing. Like riding a horse through/over something on fire would require pushing as that is not something a horse would do.
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except i don't think horses want to be ridden either
Exactly, that's what training is for :P
Animal companions are no better than any other animal in regards to the trained rules and being told what to do. If it knows the trick then it is supposed to do it. The DM is just being difficult. The only way I could see this being justified is if the player increased the animal's intelligence to 3 or better, which makes it sentient(might be the wrong word) by the rules, but in that case he could bypass the trouble of teaching it tricks since an intelligence of 3 allows something to understand a language. He should just keep in mind that 3 is still a low intelligence and to keep instructions simple.
I agree with 95% of what you said, with the exception that the Druids Companion IS better than every other animal, you get a +4 to train it, not only because of the "Link" that it shares, but also the fact that it too levels, and gets stronger as the Druid gets stronger. Normal animals don't. But meh, I guess that's besides the point.
Just add a point of Int to your Wolf at level 4!
To be clear, the animal does not yet have combat training. But it was my understanding that a trick is to teach an animal a command, not the ability to do something. If I use speak with animals to tell it what to do, I should not need a trick at all. I agree with your intelligence point, however. Also I forgot to mention that he had me roll to push the animal. I also disagree that that was necessary.
When you push an animal you get the animal to do that trick once, without the animal actually learning the trick.
PRD:“Push” an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn't know but is physically capable of performing.
Yes tricks are getting the animal to understand what you want it to do when you say "sit" as an example, and once it understands "sit" then it should always do it.
PS: Speak with animal should allow the pet to do what you say since it is friendly(at worst) to you, and if giving you a ride away from danger it should do so, even if it is inconvenient. Taking the burden of a minor inconvenience to save a friend's life is hardly pushing the limits of friendship.
It also makes more sense than trying to fight past all the guards.
except i don't think horses want to be ridden eitherExactly, that's what training is for :P
Animal companions are no better than any other animal in regards to the trained rules and being told what to do. If it knows the trick then it is supposed to do it. The DM is just being difficult. The only way I could see this being justified is if the player increased the animal's intelligence to 3 or better, which makes it sentient(might be the wrong word) by the rules, but in that case he could bypass the trouble of teaching it tricks since an intelligence of 3 allows something to understand a language. He should just keep in mind that 3 is still a low intelligence and to keep instructions simple.I agree with 95% of what you said, with the exception that the Druids Companion IS better than every other animal, you get a +4 to train it, not only because of the "Link" that it shares, but also the fact that it too levels, and gets stronger as the Druid gets stronger. Normal animals don't. But meh, I guess that's besides the point.
Just add a point of Int to your Wolf at level 4!
I was saying better as far as intelligence went, and the +4 due to the link means it should be more inclined to do what you say. Otherwise he should buy a "regular" animal that follows orders so he can ride it, dump the wolf, and get a tiger for combat.
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This is all just my interpretation, because the rules are silent on this point. I believe that the trick system is simply establishing a link for communication where no common language exists. Its pretty much universally agreed that if your companion has an Int of 4 or higher, it can understand simple commands in one language (personally I require one rank in linguistics for this), thus bypassing the trick system entirely. Given that, I fail to understand why someone who's casting Speak with Animals can't achieve the same effect. Basically, rather than teaching it your language, you're speaking to it in it's language. I personally think your DM was just being difficult and forgetting the Rule of Cool.
And a companion who understood exactly what I wanted it to do, but just decided it wanted to ignore me? That same animal could make that same decision if I had taught it the Ride trick. It's fully assumed that a companion who understands a request will comply with the request. Again, IMO.
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Animals have intelligence of 1 or 2. This represents animal or animal-like instinct. An animal has no language capacity. Were an animal to gain Intelligence of 3, it is no longer an animal; it becoems a magical beast. Such a magical beast can understand a language, but cannot speak it. (core rules intelligence description, Beastiary description of animal and magical beast)
The normal way of dealing with an animal is via Handle Animal. Getting an animal to follow a known and trained command (trick) is a DC 10. Getting him to do something for which he is not trained, but is capable of, is DC25..a push. For a druid handling his animal companion, he gets +4 on the check and it reduces the action type. (core rules skill for handle animal)
An animal companion is a loyal companion. While friendly is a catagory that relates to thinking creatures (those with Int of 3 or higher), it must also exist in a similar way for animals, as referenced in wild empathy and speak with animals. The animal has only the stated abilities for its type and level,augmented by its skill training and this friendly relationship. In all other matters it is an animal like any other. (core rules animal companion, diplomacy, wild empathy, speak with animals)
Speak with animals does not give you the ability to command, order, or dominate the animal. You may ask it questions and get a reply. If friendly, it may do you a favor. It doesn't have to, rather, it might. How that gets resolved is a matter of game culture. It could be done as a wild empathy check, through role play, as modifiers to a handle animal check, as a change in the action to the check, all sorts of things. What sort of favor will it do? That again gets back to the culture of this particular game. (core rules speak with animals, GM helper, my opinion).
You're in the process of teaching him to be a mount (if I've understood), but you aren't there yet. Speak with animals doesn't give the animal a reasoning intelligence; it's still an animal. You can ask questions. It might help. That's the content of the spell.
To my thinking, low level characters can do a bit more than normal stuff. While a higher level character might bring additional resources to the table (higher skill checks, domination spells, awakening, etc.) There should be a scale in what the character can do over the course of development.
I GM in a pretty gritty style. My game style probably isn't for everyone. In this case, you have a largely untrained animal for whom you have a bond of loyalty. I think your GM's response was reasonable. You didn't gain the ability to dominate it, thus a push is a reasonable mechanic (I would have given a modifier to the skill check). And, let's not forget that the companion did you a favor (even if not the one you wanted).
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Otherwise he should buy a "regular" animal that follows orders so he can ride it, dump the wolf, and get a tiger for combat.
For my Druid is was a toss up between a Cat Companion or the Wolf, I ended up going with the Wolf because of it's ability to Trip. Cat's get more attacks which could mean more damage in the long run.
He is a Gnome Druid, and with proper training there should be no problem with him being able to "train" and "ride" his companion. After all this is a game of the imagination, I could imagine that quite easily. I mean hell it almost makes me want to reroll a Gnome just so I can.....almost.
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Yeah, where I said 4 or higher, please substitute 3 or higher.
While Speak With Animals doesn't give you the ability to command or dominate an animal, it certainly lets you make a request of an animal, and for the animal to understand that request. Now, were we talking about some random wolf somewhere in the world, I'd completely agree that it should have the opportunity to disagree with the request. However, this is an animal companion, the bond is closer than friendship and more akin to brotherhood. I really can't see why the wolf wouldn't, in this one case for this one time, allow the Gnome to ride it.
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Animals have intelligence of 1 or 2. This represents animal or animal-like instinct. An animal has no language capacity. Were an animal to gain Intelligence of 3, it is no longer an animal; it becoems a magical beast. Such a magical beast can understand a language, but cannot speak it. (core rules intelligence description, Beastiary description of animal and magical beast)
Of course, animal companions are a specific exception to this general rule. They can have their intelligence score raised to 3 or higher as they advance, allowing them to understand verbal communication but they do NOT become magical beasts - they remain an animal.
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Animals have intelligence of 1 or 2. This represents animal or animal-like instinct. An animal has no language capacity. Were an animal to gain Intelligence of 3, it is no longer an animal; it becoems a magical beast. Such a magical beast can understand a language, but cannot speak it. (core rules intelligence description, Beastiary description of animal and magical beast)Of course, animal companions are a specific exception to this general rule. They can have their intelligence score raised to 3 or higher as they advance, allowing them to understand verbal communication but they do NOT become magical beasts - they remain an animal.
Marc, if you have a cite on this, I'd appreciate it; I'm still making the 3.5 to PF transition.
Otherwise, I'd expect the type to change from Animal to Magical Beast (augmented animal). Edit: actually, I think I have this wrong; I believe it becomes type Animal (augmented) and have started another thread on the intelligence matter.
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While Speak With Animals doesn't give you the ability to command or dominate an animal, it certainly lets you make a request of an animal, and for the animal to understand that request.
I agree that this falls within the scope of the animal performing a service or favor.
Now, were we talking about some random wolf somewhere in the world, I'd completely agree that it should have the opportunity to disagree with the request. However, this is an animal companion, the bond is closer than friendship and more akin to brotherhood. I really can't see why the wolf wouldn't, in this one case for this one time, allow the Gnome to ride it.
If you are saying that an animal companion must agree to all requests made by the bonded character, I'd have to disagree. I understand agreement to be a matter of table culture (what you want out of the games you play and what is learned from others).
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Marc, if you have a cite on this, I'd appreciate it; I'm still making the 3.5 to PF transition.
Sure,
Take a look at the actual animal companion rules in the druid section:
An animal companion's abilities are determined by the druid's level and its animal racial traits. Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics determines many of the base statistics of the animal companion. They remain creatures of the animal type for purposes of determining which spells can affect them.
Next ...
Ability Score Increase (Ex): The animal companion adds +1 to one of its ability scores. (note that intelligence is not excluded here)
Then, under Animal Skills:
Animal companions can have ranks in any of the following skills: Acrobatics* (Dex), Climb* (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly* (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Perception* (Wis), Stealth* (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim* (Str). All of the skills marked with an (*) are class skills for animal companions. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can put ranks into any skill.
And, under Animal Feats:
Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.
This has actually come up a number of times in the past and various Paizo folks have confirmed this.
Hope this helps!
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If you are saying that an animal companion must agree to all requests made by the bonded character, I'd have to disagree. I understand agreement to be a matter of table culture (what you want out of the games you play and what is learned from others).
That's not exactly what I'm saying, I'm saying it should probably agree to any reasonable request. In a game that considers "Fight on my behalf!" to be a reasonable request (See: the Attack trick), I don't think "We're in trouble, and you move faster than I do. May I ride?" is particularly unreasonable.
With that said, yes, you're absolutely right, all of this is different from table to table, and no answer is better than the other as far as that's concerned.