[Eidolon Clarification] Is Web (Ex) considered as an Attack?

[The Only Sheet]

Considering the Maximum number of attacks an Eidolon can have:

APG wrote:

Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons

Am I correct to assume that the Web (Ex) evolution is considered as one of these natural attacks?

APG wrote:

...It can throw webbing as a ranged touch attack up to 8 times per day, entangling a creature up to one size larger than the eidolon. The webbing has a range of 50 feet and a 10-foot range increment....

Thanks for clarifying!

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[Gjorbjond]

Nope. If you look at the Natural Attacks entry in the Bestiary, you'll see a list. The list is also here.

Anything that has its own entry in the Universal Monster Rules, isn't a Natural Attack.

[cfalcon]

It's not a natural attack and does not count against the limit.

One presumes throwing the web is a standard action and not part of the Eidolon attack cycle.

Also note that all the Eidolon saves are pretty easy to make, such as this and the poison.

[Tom Baumbach]

The web is an attack; it's functionally identical to the web ability located in the universal monster rules.

Is it a "natural attack" for the purposes of an eidolon's maximum number of attacks? That depends: Do rake, rock throwing, trample or countless other special attacks count as natural attacks? That's the real question.

My answer is no, web does not count as a "natural attack" for the purposes of an eidolon's maximum number of attacks because using it requires its own action. The reason for the maximum attacks rule is to limit the power of a full-attacking eidolon; since abilities like web can't be combined with a full attack, there's no cause to include them.

[The Only Sheet]

Tom Baumbach wrote:

The web is an attack; it's functionally identical to the web ability located in the universal monster rules.

Is it a "natural attack" for the purposes of an eidolon's maximum number of attacks? That depends: Do rake, rock throwing, trample or countless other special attacks count as natural attacks? That's the real question.

My answer is no, web does not count as a "natural attack" for the purposes of an eidolon's maximum number of attacks because using it requires its own action. The reason for the maximum attacks rule is to limit the power of a full-attacking eidolon; since abilities like web can't be combined with a full attack, there's no cause to include them.

Sounds good - thanks!!

[cfalcon]

Tom Baumbach wrote:

Is it a "natural attack" for the purposes of an eidolon's maximum number of attacks? That depends: Do rake, rock throwing, trample or countless other special attacks count as natural attacks? That's the real question.

They do not. Your reasoning is sound as well, but just parsing the text gives the answer.

"Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons."

"Claws (Ex)
An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks."
"Bite (Ex)
An eidolon’s maw is full of razor-sharp teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack."
This pattern continues for all the attacks.
"Web (Ex)
An eidolon gains a pair of spinnerets, giving it the ability to spin webs. The eidolon can use these webs to support itself plus up to one creature of the same size. It can throw webbing as a ranged touch attack up to 8 times per day, entangling a creature up to one size larger than the eidolon."

It can also throw thunderstones, or tindertwigs, or dragon eggs, as a ranged touch attack. So can you. But these aren't natural attacks. They are things that you can do with stuff. An Eidolon with this evolution can throw webbing as a ranged touch attack. The web, if anything, counts as a weapon.

[The Only Sheet]

Tom Baumbach wrote:

.... Do rake, rock throwing, trample or countless other special attacks count as natural attacks? That's the real question.

Well, the Rake (Ex) description says this:

Rake (Ex) wrote:

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

So Rake is a special Attack, that is also a Natural Attack according to the RAW...!!!! <scratching head> Help!

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[Tom Baumbach]

The Only Sheet wrote:

So Rake is a special Attack, that is also a Natural Attack according to the RAW...!!!! <scratching head> Help!

My list of monster abilities was meant to indicate that you need to take each monster ability on a case-by-case basis.

Rake is a weird case. I think it is limited by an eidolon's natural attacks (because as I reasoned before, it's part of a full-attack action). I'm not convinced it should be limited in that manner, because it isn't used in most rounds.

[The Only Sheet]

Can a player apply the Improved Damage (Ex) evolution on the Rend (Ex) attack?!

If anything comes out of this thread, is that the "Max. Attacks" entry of the APG is not as crystal clear as one would hope.

Or perhaps the term "Natural Attack" is fuzzy at best.

Perhaps all this should be clarified in the FAQ? I clicked on the FAQ button to bring this to Paizo's attention.

[Gjorbjond]

From what I understand, anything that has it's own action type listed (Trample), is only usable a limited number of times per day (Web), or is only able to be used under specific conditions (Rake, Rend) is not count towards the eidolon's maximum number of attacks. The things that count are the ones specifically listed under the Natural Attacks entry in the glossary of the Beastiary.

[Dragonborn3]

How many times can use you the Web evolution per day? I think you can only throw a limited number of times per day, while a friend says even if you don't throw it it still counts as a use(like making a bed from webbing).