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My questions are about the use of spellcraft skill in order to identify a spell being cast and generally notice that someone casts a spell.
If a spell doesn't have any material components and has only Verbal Components but is cast using a silent metamagic feat:
a) Can someone use spellcraft in order to identify the spell?
b) Can someone realize that a spell is being cast at that time? Does he need to have spellcraft or any player can realize that someone casts a spell even if he manages not to have Somatic, verbal and material components?
Lets see the examples below:
1) An NPC appears as a merchant. The merchant is actually a spellcaster and tries to cast charm to a PC. He has the necessary feats in order to do that without using any components. Do the other PCs have any idea that he casted a spell?
2) In the same way the PCs are facing 5 druids and one of them cast entanglement but with metamagic feats in order not to use any components. Do the PCs know which one of them casted the spell?
Not this again *groan*
Anyway,
a) by RAW, yes.
b) Well, they still provoke, so yes.
1) If they make a SC check they know the spell, if they don't have SC, they would probably still notice something's up (You see the merchant drop his gaze for a moment, concentrating hard on something).
2) Yes. see above.
Not this again *groan*
Anyway,
a) by RAW, yes.
b) Well, they still provoke, so yes.
1) If they make a SC check they know the spell, if they don't have SC, they would probably still notice something's up (You see the merchant drop his gaze for a moment, concentrating hard on something).
2) Yes. see above.
Thanks Tanis. Sorry for asking again I just wanted to be sure.
That's cool man. Happy to help.
a) Would agree with Tanis, if they have Spellcraft, they should get a check. However, in this situation, I would rule they have to have line of sight with them.
b) In a situation where someone does not have Spellcraft, there is no RAW for this. However, if the spellcaster is not using verbal, somatic or material components, it’s going to depend.
Have the other PCs (who don’t have Spellcraft) dealt with casters casting spells with Still/Silent/no material components before?
What I probably would do is allow them a Perception check. If they have seen this happen already (a caster casting like this before), I would give them a bonus modifier, if not, they would get whatever DC I would decide. Also, just like the PCs who have Spellcraft, they would of course need to have line of sight of the caster, as well.
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The way I run it is that every spellcasting involves glowing runes and strange halos floating around the caster. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if the caster doesn't have to speak or wave his appendages, you can still tell by the red jagged runes around his arms that he is about to go Fireball on you.
The way I run it is that every spellcasting involves glowing runes and strange halos floating around the caster. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if the caster doesn't have to speak or wave his appendages, you can still tell by the red jagged runes around his arms that he is about to go Fireball on you.
And I run it the opposite way where if the spell has no visible components, then any spellcraft attempt fails. The rules in this area are very vague to the point that either approach can be(and have been on this board multiple times) justified.
Do note that perception penalties apply to spellcraft checks so if I am hiding in the darkness, then anyone trying to ID my spells will have penalties to their spellcraft checks.
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Since it states that you need to apply perception mods if they can not clearly see the spell as it is being cast, just apply it as if the spell is invisible. +20 to the DC. This is only if there is no visible or audible component to the spell casting. (Still + silent + eschew materials). I treat that part of spellcraft as the ability to feel magic being formed.
This puts the 1st level spell @ a spellcraft roll of 36 to identify that way, but does at least give you some nice good numbers to work from and they are even somewhat supported in the text.
Do these apply only to identify the spell (by the use of spellcraft) or eben to realise that someone is casting a spell? I mean IMO it is not so important do you identify what spell is he casting, but how do you realise that someone casts a spell especialy out of combat.
It's a Perception roll to figure out what someone is doing (pulling out a potion, casting etc.) so all Perception modifiers would be included.
Be aware tho, that the table is screwy. Just use commonsense with whether a modifier is a bonus or penalty.
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b) I'd say the only thing left is the 3 seconds of concentration while casting, but what does "concentration" look like? a blank stare, a bunched-up forehead? Perception check with a high DC to tell he's casting anything. But no chance of telling what it was.
Damn, he might be casting a silent and stilled spell with eschew materials, but then again, he may just be working on filling his pants...
(Sorry, could not resist).
Hrm. I disagree with Tanis, unless he can provide a source for his answer to (b)?
(a) Yes, though this strikes me as silly.
(b) Not unless they are in combat or doing some other action- basically, out of initiative, there's no visible or audible sign of the casting (inside initiative the only sign is that they let their guard down enough to concentrate). Provoking an attack of opportunity isn't something that happens unless you are in a combat situation, being threatened. The spell has no verbal or somatic components, and there's nothing in the rules that gives you mage-o-vision.
(1) By the rules, everyone with spellcraft gets a roll. I guess they just smell the magic or something.
(2) Not outside of initiative order -or- unknown.
A rule for (b)? Using metamagic feats does not mean that you don't provoke when casting a spell. Just because you don't wave your arms or use verbal or material components doesn't change anything. You don't use components with Spell-Like Abilities, and they provoke as well.
Can you be more specific? I don't know what rule you're referring to.
Hrm. I disagree with Tanis, unless he can provide a source for his answer to (b)?
(a) Yes, though this strikes me as silly.
(b) Not unless they are in combat or doing some other action- basically, out of initiative, there's no visible or audible sign of the casting (inside initiative the only sign is that they let their guard down enough to concentrate). Provoking an attack of opportunity isn't something that happens unless you are in a combat situation, being threatened. The spell has no verbal or somatic components, and there's nothing in the rules that gives you mage-o-vision.
(1) By the rules, everyone with spellcraft gets a roll. I guess they just smell the magic or something.
(2) Not outside of initiative order -or- unknown.
A rule for question (b)?
There's nothing that says that using metamagic feats on spells means that you don't provoke. Just because you're not using components, you still drop your guard (and provoke AoO).
Just like Spell-Like Abilities.
And if you're provoking AoO, it must be noticeable.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Since it states that you need to apply perception mods if they can not clearly see the spell as it is being cast, just apply it as if the spell is invisible. +20 to the DC. This is only if there is no visible or audible component to the spell casting. (Still + silent + eschew materials). I treat that part of spellcraft as the ability to feel magic being formed.
This puts the 1st level spell @ a spellcraft roll of 36 to identify that way, but does at least give you some nice good numbers to work from and they are even somewhat supported in the text.
The game designers (sadly) ruled that everyone with Spellcraft gets a check. I REALLY like your interpretation though and will likely use it in my games.
The game designers (sadly) ruled that everyone with Spellcraft gets a check. I REALLY like your interpretation though and will likely use it in my games.Since it states that you need to apply perception mods if they can not clearly see the spell as it is being cast, just apply it as if the spell is invisible. +20 to the DC. This is only if there is no visible or audible component to the spell casting. (Still + silent + eschew materials). I treat that part of spellcraft as the ability to feel magic being formed.
This puts the 1st level spell @ a spellcraft roll of 36 to identify that way, but does at least give you some nice good numbers to work from and they are even somewhat supported in the text.
Everyone gets a spellcraft check, but the spellcraft check specifically and explicitedly states you are supposed to use those modifiers from the perception table for the spellcraft check.
And if you're provoking AoO, it must be noticeable.Only in combat. Remember, you don't move, you don't shout, you don't stink, wiggle, or poop glowing motes. The reason it provokes is simply that you let your guard down. Someone standing in line next to you at a restaurant is flat footed and constantly taking actions that would provoke an attack of opportunity, but that doesn't mean you know it unless you start threatening them with that plastic spork.
Um... nothing in the book says anything of what you are assuming. The entire time in your restruant example you are provoking, and probably not flat footed -- it's just that no one cares to take the time to hit you -- after all why should they?
The entire time in your restruant example you are provoking, and probably not flat footed -- it's just that no one cares to take the time to hit you -- after all why should they?The point is that no one is threatening. Nothing in the book says that you are obviously doing blah. It just says you provoke. That's a lapse in guard, represented by the chance to take an attack. But if you aren't being threatened you don't provoke. So saying "it provokes so it must be obvious" isn't true. Unless you threaten someone in combat with a melee weapon, they aren't provoking anything.
Spells without a somatic component never provoke AoOs.
Still spells have no somatic components so they don't provoke.
Silent Spell and the eschew materials feat have no effect on AoOs.
Spells without a somatic component never provoke AoOs.
Still spells have no somatic components so they don't provoke.
Silent Spell and the eschew materials feat have no effect on AoOs.
I don't see anything to support this interpretation.
I don't see anything to support this interpretation.Spells without a somatic component never provoke AoOs.
Still spells have no somatic components so they don't provoke.
Silent Spell and the eschew materials feat have no effect on AoOs.
Wow. Not at home right now but checking the SRD I don't see it either.
No idea where that came from, but it's how we've always played. Maybe the fact that you can't cast spells with a somatic component when grappled blurred the line for me somehow.
I'll check again when I'm home, but at the moment it looks like I was dead wrong.