There's a number of axioms that tend to be bantered across my game table, some more often than others. Perhaps the one I hear the most is this - "If you're going to kill the mage, then you better do it now."
As a bit of background, I play a fighter and my friend a sorcerer. We're still low level at the moment, hence the statement that if I'm going to kill the mage, I need to do it before we reach higher levels - at which point a melee combatant cannot possibly triumph against an equivalent level magic user.
This past week I took the unspoken challenge that a high level fighter can't kill a high level mage personally and began constructing what I feel to be a viable melee arcane magic user killer. I'd like some input on the idea. As far as content limitations go, the campaign is presumably Pathfinder only but with a convincing enough argument the occasional splat content is allowed.
The theory is this, if a magic user's strength is his spells - dur - than the goal should be to prevent casting. PFRPG gives fighters a nice mechanic for this in the Disruptive and Spellbreaker feats, but all other classes are left behind. Not to mention, those two feats are easily avoided simply by not being next to the fighter when you cast. The Mage Slayer feat chain in Complete Arcane gives some nice options as well, but as those are splat I didn't bother trying to incorporate them just yet. I'd like to exhaust all PFRPG options first.
So I've created a character who's primary focus is on grappling. While it doesn't prevent casting completely, it does eliminate any spells with a somatic component and the required 10 + CMB + Spell Level concentration check is about as good as it gets. His secondary focus is on stealth. The idea is to sneak up to the mage, making his way past any traps, guards, or other defenses, tackle the mage, and go from there.
Problem #1: Once grappling the mage, his damage potential is extremely limited - meaning a long time till the mage is dead. In other words, a long time for help to arrive, for the mage to escape the grapple, or for a million other things to go wrong. I've attempted to alleviate this by taking 3 levels in Shadowdancer to gain the Shadow companion - character grapples, shadow kills - but that's a relatively poor fix. e.g. What if the target is a lich?
Here's the concept: Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Monk 5/Shadowdancer 3 (I'm limiting it to 10 levels because if the theory isn't viable at 10, then there's no point going further.)
Realistically, I should make him human (at the least, it'd eliminate the fighter level) but because I have an odd sense of humor and it would amuse me, I'd like to make him a half-orc. Perhaps with the Rock Climber and Sacred Tattoo alternative racial traits from the APG. That's incidental though.
For stats, we're offered a 23 point buy. For a half-orc, I chose.
STR 10
DEX 18 (+2 racial)
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 11
I'll break down the levels and the reasoning behind them to elaborate on the theory.
1) Rogue 1:
Feat: Weapon Finesse.
Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device, Stealth, Use Magic Device.
Reasoning: Trapfinding. If the character's going to kill mages, he needs to be able to access them in their strongholds. Trapfinding is necessary then to allow him to disable magical traps.
2) Monk 1:
Feats: Dodge (Monk Bonus)
Skills: As above
Reasoning: The character is primarily a monk, for the improved unarmed damage and the added mobility. The Wisdom and extra AC bonuses are an added plus, as they contribute to Touch AC.
3) Fighter 1:
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Celerity (Fighter Bonus)
Skills: Disable Device, Stealth
Reasoning: Wanted an extra feat win order to get Weapon Celerity (GM approved version below) sooner. While not specifically necessary for a mage-killer of this type, I wanted to avoid specializing too completely in order to make him actually viable for game use. The extra Fort is nice as well.
[Weapon Celerity (combat)
Requirements: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Base Attack +3
You are trained in using your agility to make deadly blows, as opposed to using brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee damage rolls. Attacks made with an off hand attack using any of the listed weapons may use half your Dexterity modifier, rounded down, instead of your Strength modifier. When using any of the listed weapons in one hand while nothing occupies the other hand and wearing light or no armor, you may use 1 and a half times your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee damage rolls. You may not use this feat if you carry a shield other than a Buckler.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.]
4) Monk 2:
Feats: Combat Reflexes (Monk Bonus)
Skills: As above
Reasoning: Another level in monk. Combat Reflexes as necessary for Shadowdancer.
5) Monk 3:
Feats: Mobility
Skills: As above.
Reasoning: Another level in monk. Mobility as necessary for Shadowdancer.
6) Shadowdancer 1:
Feats: None.
Skills: As above.
Reasoning: Shadowdancer mostly for HiPS. Between HiPS, a high Stealth and Dex, and Use Magic Device and a wand of invisibility or a ring, he should have no problem staying unseen up until he's already grappling the mage.
7) Shadowdancer 2:
Feats: Agile Maneuvers.
Skills: As above.
Reasoning: Agile Manuevers to increase CMB and thus the DC of the concentration check the mage has to make to cast. Level two of Shadowdancer also gives Darkvision and Uncanny Dodge.
8) Shadowdancer 3:
Feats: None.
Skills: As above.
Reasoning: Summon Shadow primarily. The way I see it, I get a permanent flanking partner, a potential way to kill grappled mages, at the cost of the 16th level of Monk. Meaning I lose the unarmed damage increased (to 2d8), +1 AC, and 10 feet of slow fall in exchange for the shadow. I also get a Rogue Talent (I believe Fast Stealth would work best).
9) Monk 4:
Feats: Improved Grapple
Skills: As above.
Reasoning: Back to monk for the remainder of the character.
10) Monk 5:
Feats: None.
Skills: As above.
Reasoning: Because I needed a level ten?
Problem #2: Is the character at all viable as a Player character? In other words, is he at all useful against other enemies? He can serve as a scout and an infiltrator, but is he a viable equivalent to a level 10 rogue?
I believe so, but I'm not positive. Hence the asking. Thoughts?
the average damage for just a straight fighter with a longbow focus comes out to around 61hp average damage, at range. 10th level wizard probably wont have that many hp. take improved init. both iron wills to cover your weakness, and you are golden. the worst thing a wizard can dish out at this level(for a fighter) is dominate person or interposing hand. with a longbow build you should be able to shred him. assuming no prep time. i think thats what the real meaning of "If you're going to kill the mage, then you better do it now." is.
if a wizard gets a chance to prep for you or anyone there is nothing but doom in the cards.
the grapple i think is not your best route. teleport is verbal only. you just need to shoot him to death before he does anything. three attacks with a composite longbow built for strength(+6) with all the feats to support it( deadly aim, rapid shot, focus, greater focus, specialization.) and without magic he's doing 1d8+16 per shot times three. that should put any mage tenth and under down.
Dust of negation. Make an egg out of it and throw/sling it at him, touch attack. Poof, he's at the center of his own Anti-magic shell.
Walk up to him and kill him. Cost? About 100 gp a packet. The only thing you have to worry about is miss chance, so get some true sight or Pierce Magical Concealment to avoid it.
Other then that, simply taking a standard action to shoot/hack/throw at a mage once he casts will basically shut him down every time. You can do a lot more dmg then he's going to make up with a concentration check.
===Aelryinth
the average damage for just a straight fighter with a longbow focus comes out to around 61hp average damage, at range. 10th level wizard probably wont have that many hp. take improved init. both iron wills to cover your weakness, and you are golden. the worst thing a wizard can dish out at this level(for a fighter) is dominate person or interposing hand. with a longbow build you should be able to shred him. assuming no prep time. i think thats what the real meaning of "If you're going to kill the mage, then you better do it now." is.
if a wizard gets a chance to prep for you or anyone there is nothing but doom in the cards.
the grapple i think is not your best route. teleport is verbal only. you just need to shoot him to death before he does anything. three attacks with a composite longbow built for strength(+6) with all the feats to support it( deadly aim, rapid shot, focus, greater focus, specialization.) and without magic he's doing 1d8+16 per shot times three. that should put any mage tenth and under down.
One of the great hazards of any archer build is a spell called "Wind Wall".
It's of such great utility for any mage built with awareness of what a shooty-type can do, that I'm SERIOUSLY considering it as the spell my Sorcerer evoker takes after getting Haste and Fireball. It's certainly worth taking as a utility wand.
I have Fly at 7th level as a bloodline spell.
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I'd suggest grabbing Step Up. Helps keep the wizard in a threatened range.
Let's see here. If two characters are being built for this encounter it won't seem actually like a really good example. The wizard will be tailored to fight against the melee character and without the threat of other challenges in a real game can go all out and blow everything they've got instead of how an actual in game situation could play out.
That said, grappling probably isn't really your best bet. Your better off with a great sword and a readied action to interrupt the spell casting. With Step Up and the other movement feats out of the APG you should easily be able to keep the wizard moving about. May want to pick up the improved version of Iron Will as well for the will save reroll.
One of the great hazards of any archer build is a spell called "Wind Wall".It's of such great utility for any mage built with awareness of what a shooty-type can do, that I'm SERIOUSLY considering it as the spell my Sorcerer evoker takes after getting Haste and Fireball. It's certainly worth taking as a utility wand.
I have Fly at 7th level as a bloodline spell.
doesnt make any difference if the mage loses initiative. which was the point i was trying to make. if the fighter goes first the mage dies. if the mage goes first. maybe the mage wins, maybe he doesnt, it depends on the tactics and strategy employed. clever mage gets out if he gets to go first, and sends lackeys. either summoned, or charmed or whatever. windwall as a choice if a mage gets to go first would not be on the top of my list. the wall doesnt do anything to prevent the fighter from closing. even with a range weighted build any tenth level fighter is going to be able to bring wicked amounts of damage to bear. interposing hand doesnt stop the arrows cold but it does give a cover bonus(+4) and it keeps the fighter at bay. more importantly it gives him another target. i would still just teleport out given the option. kill him later.
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I think your mage killer is fine, though I'd do it very differently. Pinning opponents is nice, and allows you to tie up spell casters effectively. Liberal use of tanglefoot bags, nets, rods of cancellation, and other fun toys are encouraged.
I think your character can be effective, though I'm not really a monk fan, so I'm probably not the best judge. How does he fare with traps, stealth, and perception?
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Your monk build seems fairly effective, given the fast movement to close distance, good overall saves, evasion, and stunning fists as another way to stop casting. I don't really see why you would need fighter or rogue levels added in personally, since those will detract from the level of your monk skills, but if it rounds out your character the way you want it, then I say go for it.
My personal favorit is the rogue for a mage killer. Done properly, an equal level mage won't see the rogue coming. Sneak up, stabby stabby with a poisoned weapon, win initative, and repeat. :)
It depends (a lot) on what the starting range is.
It also depends (a lot) on how the mage is built.
I've got a Half-Orc Brass Draconic Sorcerer. Running her up to 10th level at 23 point buy:
STR 14, DEX 12, CON 13+1+2, INT 13+1, WIS 10, CHA 16+2+4 (Item)
Item List:
Hatband of Awesome Charisma +4 (16K)
Belt of Constitution +2 (4K)
Ring of Protection +2 (8K)
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8K)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9K)
+1 Keen Falchion (8.5K) (Backup weapon. Really.)
Hat of Persuasion (4.5K)
Metamagic Rod (Extend) (3K)
There's roughly 1K left unspent for other gewgaws.
Traits: Conspiracy Hunter [Stealth], Ease of Faith [Diplomacy]
Feats: Darksight 120', Weapon Focus [Falchion], Elemental Spell, Toughness (Bloodline), Dazzling Display, Empower Spell.
Skills: Diplomacy and Stealth are class skills (with +1 bonuses) from Traits, Perception is a class skill (no bonus) from Draconic bloodline. All Favored Class bonuses go to boosting damage of Fire Magic spells.
Intimidate is +24 at level 10, Perception is +10, Stealth is +11 (Diplomacy is at +23). Use Magic Device is at +18, enough to use a Cleric On A Stick reliably.
As you can see, this is a sub optimal build.
I am going to beg the indulgence of having her cast Mage Armor every morning before getting out of bed, and refreshing it around afternoon tea time. Two castings covers 20 hours of the day, and it's not like she's lacking for 1st level spell slots to cast from.
This gives her a native AC of 10+1 (Dex) +2 (Amulet) +2 (Draconic) +2 (Ring) +4 (Mage Armor) of 21.
Spells, in order taken. (Bloodline is the last spell listed)
0: Don't matter.
1: Magic Missile, Burning Hands (5d4+10), Shield, Silent Image, Grease, Mage Armor. (At 4th, she swapped out Hypnotism for Magic Missile)
2: Acid Arrow, Mirror Image, See Invisible, Invisibility, Resist Energy. Through use of the Elemental Spell metamagic, Elemental Magic Missile is a 2nd level spell, doing 1d4+7 At 10th level, between Draconic and Half Orc bonuses
3: Fireball (10d6+15), Wind Wall, Haste, Fly. Elemental Magic Arrow (Fire) is a 3rd level spell, doing 2d4+8 damage for 4 turns.
4: Black Tentacles, Wall of Fire, Fear. Empowered Elemental Magic Missile is a 4th level spell, doing 1d4+7 * 1.5 * 5 missiles. Empowered Acid Arrow is a 4th level spell doing 2d4 * 1.5, and lasting for 4 rounds.
5: Teleport. Empowered, Elemental (fire) Acid Arrow is a 5th level spell doing 2d4+8 * 1.5, and lasting for 4 rounds. Empowered Fireball is a 5th level spell doing 10d6+15 * 1.5
Let's put this all together now.
Base AC is 21. 25 with a Shield spell. Not bad for a Dex of 12.
Initiative is +1. Hit points are 82.
If we start at range 800, the archer is dead.
We will assume the archer goes first. We will assume the archer has the following:
STR 20, DEX 22, CON 18. (We will ignore his other stats). This gives him 104 hit points. We will assume a +3 Strength 20 longbow.
We will assume the following feats:
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, MultiShot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Improved Critical (Longbow) and Improved Initiative.
We'll just make things simple. He goes first.
My tally of the Archer's BAB is this:
10+6+3+2+2 = +23 (BAB, Dex, Weapon, Weapon Focus/GWF, Weapon Training (Bows)).
We will assume the Archer has a Haste spell, because he would. That adds an additional +1. So the total BAB progression (raw) is +24(x2)/+24/+19, not using any feats that reduce his accuracy. He does 1d8+5+3+2+2=+12 damage per arrow. I'm going to say that's 17 per arrow that hits, because he's lucky enough to always roll a 5 on the d8.
At 770 feet, he's firing at 7 range increments. This is -12 to hit. His progression now looks like +12(2)/+12/+7. These still aren't too bad.
Let's assume he hits with the first attack and the second and misses with the third (he needs to roll a 9 or higher to hit me with the first two, and a 14 or higher with the last one). This is 3 arrows hitting for 51 damage. Ouch. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and let him hit with the last one or roll a crit. That's 68, which isn't *QUITE* enough. If he gets all four arrows in and rolls a crit, he's won. Odds aren't bad for this.
OK, so if he hits with everything, he wins.
Let's crank it up one more notch.
Let's have him use those Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim feats. They drop his accuracy by 5, but give him +6 damage per arrow (23 per hit), and give him an extra shot.
Now he's doing +7(2)/+7/+7/+2. He's doing the same number of hits, but each hit is doing 23 damage. Let's call it 69 damage. If he rolls a crit on any of those, I'm dead with 82 hit points.
So, his odds are good at this range (and they only get better if we start out closer).
However - if he DOESN'T do this, he's dead.
My first action will be Wind Wall. I no longer have to worry about your arrows. My spells go through it just fine.
My second action will be to cast Extended Elemental (Fire) Acid Arrow with the Metamagic Rod. Welcome to long term fun. For the next 8 rounds, you're taking 2d4+8 fire damage each round. Average is 13 damage per round; if you don't have Resist Energy for Fire, that average damage is enough to drop you. (If you do have Resist Energy, that average damage will still hurt you.)
My third action will be to cast an Extended Empowered (Acid) Acid Arrow. It's only doing 2d4 * 1.5 energy, but it's a different type, and you might not have both Acid and Fire as energy types. Even assuming both Fire and Acid resistance of 10, you're going to be losing a fair number of hit points per round.
I'll have used 3 3rd level spells out of 7.
Also note that unless we're fighting on an open plain, you do have to HIT with those rays and arrows, he can always find cover from you, and that elemental fire arrow can be washed off the same way the acid arrow damage can be.
As soon as you move out from behind your wind wall, you're archer toast again.
The real kicker is that unless this encounter is taking place at a range where you're mucking with the archer's accuracy, your mage is guaranteed dead.
==Aelryinth
Also note that unless we're fighting on an open plain, you do have to HIT with those rays and arrows, he can always find cover from you, and that elemental fire arrow can be washed off the same way the acid arrow damage can be.
As soon as you move out from behind your wind wall, you're archer toast again.
The real kicker is that unless this encounter is taking place at a range where you're mucking with the archer's accuracy, your mage is guaranteed dead.
==Aelryinth
While I also remember that you can wash off the acid from Acid Arrow, I cannot find it in the description of the spell on the SRD. Know where it is, or is this something that got changed in Pathfinder that I never noticed?
And if it's not an open plain, and not a complete ambush, odds are I have cover of some sort.
If it's done in pitch darkness, I will see him before he sees me (which is why this character has Darkvision 120')
Really depends on initiative. IF just about any melee're can get a surprise round and win initiative he can kill a mage. The mage would also need to want to fight to the death or he'd just get outs dodge. I often small mages who flee when it looks like they're gonna die. So probably the best mage killers are archerA-side for whom distance isn't a factor or a stunning fist monk or a pouncing barbarian (with superstition) or a dazing assault two handed fighter.
Initiative only matters at lower levels. After about 10 it doesn't matter -- I don't care what type of build you have, if it's pathfinder player rules, then my mage will not go down to a melee fighter -- it simply isn't in the cards.
Well... Go rogue. You said lvl 10 yer self, so at 10th lvl you could get the dispelling attack major talent (plus you'd also have a few arcane tricks yourself since you'll have to pick a 0-lvl spell and a 1st lvl spell as one of your talents (minor and major magic). Don't forget step up. And have that wand of greater invisibility close by, so don't be shy with UMD. Sprinckle on some of the other good ideas and maybe you could have yourself a dead duck.. errr... wizard... TWF would be a given here...
Weapon Celerity (combat)
Requirements: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Base Attack +3
You are trained in using your agility to make deadly blows, as opposed to using brute strength.Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee damage rolls. Attacks made with an off hand attack using any of the listed weapons may use half your Dexterity modifier, rounded down, instead of your Strength modifier. When using any of the listed weapons in one hand while nothing occupies the other hand and wearing light or no armor, you may use 1 and a half times your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee damage rolls. You may not use this feat if you carry a shield other than a Buckler.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
"sniff"
It always makes a father proud to see their baby make their way into the world.
Other than a few minor tweaks this is exactly what I posted months ago. Thank you for that.
Zomb makes an excellent point. Teleportation school just became the go to school for our group. My arcane trickster has it and it's amazing with stealth. Another player is making a 10th level Teleportationist for an upcoming game. It's just that good!
For a truly effective anti-mage character you'll need a belt of anti-magic field if grappling or arrows that cast dispel magic when striking. These are very expensive options. Pathfinder currently supports casters far more than martial types at this time. Ultimate Combat won't come out until after Ultimate Magic, so it looks like it'll be awhile before your dream can be realized.
Thanks all, you've given me quite a deal to think about. Just want to clarify something, then I have one little favor to ask...
I think the idea is to kill NPC mages, not PC mages. There's some pretty big differences.
Yes and no. The stats I've listed are for a character I'd actually like to play - ergo, NPC's - but the theory for him is coming from a similar character I'm designing for a friendly grudge match against the mage in our group. We're both designing characters especially to fight against the other. So really I shouldn't be asking if it works, I should be asking what are my weak points?
Not that you haven't already done a good job, but please people, tear this guy apart. I know the odds are against me, so if I want to have any chance he has to be the best I can make him - even if the best isn't necessarily good. So rip him into tiny, itty, bitty, little shreds and make him cry. Big half-orc tears. If you had to make a mage for this, how would you fight this guy?
Further particulars for the duel: room is a square, 150 feet by 150 feet. There are two doors on either side, the two characters will enter through there. Room is lit by torches along the walls and a large bonfire directly in the center of the room. The walls, ceiling, and ground are made of pure unobtanium that prevents any escape from the room once the two doors are shut.
Presumably the monk will go before the mage. He pops a potion of Invisibility, and he and his shadow enter into the room, Stealth, and move towards the mage's side. Mage's turn. It's just your character, what he has on him, and what he can summon. Your go.
Well... Go rogue. You said lvl 10 yer self, so at 10th lvl you could get the dispelling attack major talent (plus you'd also have a few arcane tricks yourself since you'll have to pick a 0-lvl spell and a 1st lvl spell as one of your talents (minor and major magic). Don't forget step up. And have that wand of greater invisibility close by, so don't be shy with UMD. Sprinckle on some of the other good ideas and maybe you could have yourself a dead duck.. errr... wizard... TWF would be a given here...
TWF will just help you miss more -- honestly even with the dispelling attack you are only going to drop *maybe* a few of my lowest level spells -- and this is even considering the very large assumption that you can *reach* me. Honestly a mage not 45 feet off the ground at all times at level 10 is asking for problems.
Yes there are lots of nifty little abilities that *if* you can get to the mage you *might* be able to *annoy* him with -- but at most it's going to be just that *annoyance* -- specifically because the *melee* fighter specifically just isn't going to have ways to counter the many -- Many tricks at a casters disposal.
Also the very *assumption* that anyone will go before the mage is -- well lacking in any sort of basis in fact -- Divination anyone? Hello I go before I even know I need to go. First action? Hm... um... lets go with mirror image and emergency force shelter -- oops you can't do jack -- what a shame.
Of course we are ignoring all the buffs I probably have up already since those are first thing in the morning -- AND my familiar's actions as well. Easy buff list includes mage armor, phantom steed, overland flight, false life, stoneskin and detect scrying.
Honestly a mage not 45 feet off the ground at all times at level 10 is asking for problems.
I'm assuming the mage is using Fly as it gives him a speed of 60 ft as opposed to the 40 ft of Overland Flight. A Shadow has a fly speed of 40 ft, which, while not enough to stay up with him in a race, keeps him in the air. In the above scenario, the mage would be flying in at least dim light, meaning the shadow can Stealth, follow him around, and then attack whenever it gets into range. Two or lucky hits or three average ones on the average mage and he's dead.
Alternatively, UMD, a wand of Dispel Magic, and Russian roulette to try and get the Fly spell.
I would also mention the Teleportation School specialism from the APG. Grapple and step-up are ineffective against it.
Wouldn't you still be required to make a Concentration check in order to utilize the ability?
I would also mention the Teleportation School specialism from the APG. Grapple and step-up are ineffective against it.Wouldn't you still be required to make a Concentration check in order to utilize the ability?
To answer my own question, no you wouldn't. Supernatural ability, not spell-like. So same tactic as above. Stealth and try and catch him off-guard, then Stealth again. Rinse, lather, repeat.
Or... wand of Darkness or Deeper Darkness? The teleport ability says "You must be able to see the space that you are moving into." Take away his vision and you neutralize the ability.
I always was under the impression that fighting fire with fire was best.
As in, an arcane trickster.
You know, I've never really taken the time to stop and look at the new PFRPG Arcane Trickster. You've got me interested. It sounds like it could be a great deal of fun.
And I'm rapidly realizing that you're right. The only way to fight fire is with fire - at least here. All these potential strategies I'm suggesting are relying on either UMD or the character's shadow (Create Greater Undead?). /sigh
Doesn't mean I'm not going to try.
Honestly a mage not 45 feet off the ground at all times at level 10 is asking for problems.I'm assuming the mage is using Fly as it gives him a speed of 60 ft as opposed to the 40 ft of Overland Flight. A Shadow has a fly speed of 40 ft, which, while not enough to stay up with him in a race, keeps him in the air. In the above scenario, the mage would be flying in at least dim light, meaning the shadow can Stealth, follow him around, and then attack whenever it gets into range. Two or lucky hits or three average ones on the average mage and he's dead.
Alternatively, UMD, a wand of Dispel Magic, and Russian roulette to try and get the Fly spell.
I would also mention the Teleportation School specialism from the APG. Grapple and step-up are ineffective against it.Wouldn't you still be required to make a Concentration check in order to utilize the ability?
Honestly I would go with overland flight since I don't have to recast it. Once and done for the day. Fortunately Your Russian roulette just gives me more time to kill you -- or rather just use my summoned monsters to do the same... oh by the way dismissal -- your shadow is a summons and it's gone now. Also if I know you are coming I could have simply used protection from alignment -- your shadow is basically useless -- resilient sphere? Force effect also blocks the shadow. Since I got rid of your shadow you get to make a fort save though have fun with the negative level.
You know the chill touch spell? I make one touch attack and your shadow -- with a +4 will save --- will have to make a DC 20 Will save or go running away. Now granted doing everything would take time -- but I don't have to do everything -- I just have to have the options and use whatever is most appropriate at the time. Halt undead as well -- DC 22.
A wand of dispel magic? You are going to waste time and money that way? Best buy it at the best caster level you can *that's expensive by the way... even the CL5 wand with less than a 25% chance of success costs 11,250 gp*.
The teleport school ability is a swift action supernatural ability which doesn't require concentration checks, and can be followed with a black tentacles spell -- or simply cloudkill.
The near and far of it is that melee is not the way to kill a mage. Magic is the way to kill a mage, or a nice monster. Diviners are going to be even harder to kill since you can't get the drop on them, and they can know where/who/what you are (though I fully agree this is by no means garantueed).
Modred has the right of it in general. Another excellent option for a mage hunter is a witch eldritch knight, or a sandman or arcane duelist bard.
In general you need the means to handle magic with magic, because while all the other options are excellent in certain situations, the mage can adapt and overcome quickly.
The other successful option is to have a battle of attrition -- which will require many mooks and the means to keep the caster in a place that he can be reached for a long term. At spontaneous fights casters are at their strongest -- but if you can track them (hard in and of itself) and keep at them for multiple fights in the same day then you develop a better chance at success.
This is also the balance point of the spell casters. The fighter is at best potential all day long -- the longer the day goes for the spell caster the more options he uses up the less power he has going forward.
I understand the appeal of the sorc/pally. However I would want to point out what you can get with a witch/fighter/EK.
On the witch side you get:
Righteous Might, Divine favor (doesn't stack but nice at low levels), heal, transformation, great debuffs (knock out their AC or To hit so you can go toe to toe easier) and numerous ways to prevent escape.
From fighter you get:
More damage options -- take weapon master archtype to level 3 -- it hurts, but with that you get weapon training and can get some duelist gloves (wrong name they are in the APG) which increase your weapon training by +2.
Still spell and your AC will be solid -- though it does hurt the casting. Double check your spells! If it's an all day buff cast it before putting your armor on. Look for spells without somatic components already and prep those at level. The flight hex while normally not so hot can be for the witch blade since it's supernatural instead of spell like or a spell. Selective spell is nice on the anti-magic field of course (but will be a very high level choice).
If you have magic then the Disruptive metamagic feat is almost a must have -- when the spell does its effect the concentration check kicks in -- use this on a spell that does effects again and again over multiple rounds! Acid arrow is a prime example. This is true for dazing too. Anytime you can waste their action in addition to what you want to do you've made a good choice.
If you want flight, get a potion of Fly. It's quick, it's fast, it's easy. And not very expensive, compared to a wand.
It also takes more time to use, is more expensive (per use) and provokes AoOs... which the wand does not. Finally potions are easier to... take out than an actual ability to fly -- and with overland flight you save actions, time, cost, and stay out of position for the melee fighter, while at the same time getting a better tactical angle to watch for possible attacks.
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Right, overland flight is better than a potion of fly. But what if you need to nail a flying creature and you don't have overland flight? The OP's character does not have overland flight. Your suggestion that he use overland flight is therefore nonsensical.
Of course, you could also nail the flier with tanglefoot bags, dust of negation, iron bands of binding, etc., and take him down that way. Then beat him to death.
There are plenty of other ways to close in on a flying creature and use melee attacks on it. Many of them are open to all 10th-level characters, regardless of class.
Right, overland flight is better than a potion of fly. But what if you need to nail a flying creature and you don't have overland flight? The OP's character does not have overland flight. Your suggestion that he use overland flight is therefore nonsensical.
Of course, you could also nail the flier with tanglefoot bags, dust of negation, iron bands of binding, etc., and take him down that way. Then beat him to death.
There are plenty of other ways to close in on a flying creature and use melee attacks on it. Many of them are open to all 10th-level characters, regardless of class.
You've obviously missed everything I've said so I'll let you go back and reread.
oh by the way dismissal -- your shadow is a summons and it's gone now.
How would that effect the shadowdancer? I'm going to assume he'd have to make the DC 15 Fort save, but since it was neither destroyed nor willingly dismissed I'd like positive clarification...
The near and far of it is that melee is not the way to kill a mage. Magic is the way to kill a mage, or a nice monster.
I've come to that rather definitive conclusion by this point. Melee has an average start with a strong finish while magic has a slow start with a powerhouse finish. At higher levels the mage is by far the more powerful of the two. In a straight fight, unless the mage does something overwhelmingly stupid, he will win. Oh well, it was fun plotting.
One last strategy: Wand of Antimagic field. Cast it on yourself, close fast, use Step Up and Stand Still to keep the mage inside the 10 ft range and pound on him till he's dead. Though, I suppose alternatively you can always slit his throat while he's sleeping...
Um... I'll chalk that one up to late night for you...
A wand can only be of 4th level or lower, since anti magic field is a 6th level spell it won't be happening.
AND if you anti magic yourself before closing with the mage odds are you won't be closing with the mage. At the point you are without magic and he's not (before you close) he's probably going to make sure you can't close before you get in to him. This is easily done with force effects, flying higher than 20 feet, or simply teleporting away.
My second action will be to cast Extended Elemental (Fire) Acid Arrow with the Metamagic Rod. Welcome to long term fun. For the next 8 rounds, you're taking 2d4+8 fire damage each round. Average is 13 damage per round; if you don't have Resist Energy for Fire, that average damage is enough to drop you. (If you do have Resist Energy, that average damage will still hurt you.)
My third action will be to cast an Extended Empowered (Acid) Acid Arrow. It's only doing 2d4 * 1.5 energy, but it's a different type, and you might not have both Acid and Fire as energy types. Even assuming both Fire and Acid resistance of 10, you're going to be losing a fair number of hit points per round.
I'm interested in how you arrived at these numbers. Acid arrow only does 2d4 damage plus 2d4 damage each round for a number of rounds equal to 1/3 CL. Bloodline Arcana for the draconic bloodline adds X damage to every spell where X is the number of damage dice rolled. This calculates out to 7 damage on average. If I've missed something please say so because I like your example much better.
My second action will be to cast Extended Elemental (Fire) Acid Arrow with the Metamagic Rod. Welcome to long term fun. For the next 8 rounds, you're taking 2d4+8 fire damage each round. Average is 13 damage per round; if you don't have Resist Energy for Fire, that average damage is enough to drop you. (If you do have Resist Energy, that average damage will still hurt you.)
My third action will be to cast an Extended Empowered (Acid) Acid Arrow. It's only doing 2d4 * 1.5 energy, but it's a different type, and you might not have both Acid and Fire as energy types. Even assuming both Fire and Acid resistance of 10, you're going to be losing a fair number of hit points per round.
I'm interested in how you arrived at these numbers. Acid arrow only does 2d4 damage plus 2d4 damage each round for a number of rounds equal to 1/3 CL. Bloodline Arcana for the draconic bloodline adds X damage to every spell where X is the number of damage dice rolled. This calculates out to 7 damage on average. If I've missed something please say so because I like your example much better.
The trick here is that they were very sloppy in wording the Half-Orc bonus for fire spells in the APG as a favored class bonus.
The text as written is "Add +1/2 to fire spell damage". It does not say "Add +1/2 to fire damage spells", and word order means a lot. As the sentence is structured, that bonus adds to each damage causing element (so it adds per round of damage, per ray and per missile).
So, using the APG Half-Orc favored class for a fire using Draconic Sorcerer, you get the following:
2d4 (base damage for Acid Arrow)
2d4+2 (base damage for converting the spell to Fire for a Draconic sorcerer with the Elemental Spell feat.)
2d4+2+6 (as above for a Draconic bloodline Sorcerer who happens to be a Half-Orc at level 12, with all favored class bonuses going to "Add +1/2 to fire spell damage")
It takes A) using the Half-Orc Favored Class Option and B) a feat to get this, so it's a third level spell. Making it extended makes it a 4th level spell, and I think this is one of the handful of cases where Extended Spell actually adds to damage done.
Mind, someone with Energy Resistance [fire] - a 2nd level spell - laughs at you. Someone without it? They're going to be incredibly unhappy.
Thank you for clearing that up. For the life of me I couldn't figure out where you were getting that kind of damage. I looked through every 3.5 splat book I had thinking that it was something I missed...forgot about the newest APG...my bad, lol.
Um... of course if you add 1/2 to each hit of the acid arrow then you aren't really adding 1/2 per level -- you are adding 1/2 per level x 1/3 your level.
Um... I'll chalk that one up to late night for you...
Let's do that, I like that excuse.
Thank you all for your help.