I need some help and clarification figuring out the to hit bonus for a heavy warhorse. Unless I'm missing something, there seems to be an error in the Horse's attack roll entry in the Bestiary, when you factor in its BAB, strength, and Docile (Ex) attributes, and what happens when you change it to a heavy horse and then to a combat trained horse.
To do this, you need to look at the Horse entry in the Bestiary, then add the Simple Advanced template to it to create a Heavy Horse, then you need to factor in primary/secondary attack changes if it is trained for combat using the Handle Animal skill. Below are the horse statistics/rules as I understand them, for each step (regular horse to heavy horse to heavy warhorse).
Regular horse to hit stats (Bestiary p.177): BAB +1 and Str 16 (+3) give it a +4 to hit. It has 2 hoof attacks which are secondary attacks (see "Docile (Ex)", below, and primary/secondary attacks on p. 302 of the Bestiary), incurring a -5 penalty. So, instead of +4 to hit with hooves, it should have a -1 to hit. However, the Bestiary lists it as -2 to hit. Is this a typo or am I missing something?
Docile (Ex) Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill on page 97 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook), a horse’s hooves are treated as secondary attacks.
>>> This means that a __combat trained__ horse's hooves are primary attacks. So for a heavy warhorse, this means there is no -5 penalty for hoof attacks.
A heavy horse gains the advanced simple template (Bestiary p.177). Advanced simple template: +2 natural armor bonus; +4 to all ability scores (Bestiary p.294) In addition, it also gains a bite attack that inf licts 1d4 damage, and its hoof damage increases to 1d6.
Heavy horse to hit stats: BAB +1 and Str 20 (+5) give it a +6 to hit. It has 2 hoof attacks which are secondary attacks (see "Docile (Ex)", above) incurring a -5 penalty. So, instead of +6 to hit with hooves, it should have a +1 to hit. It also gets a bite attack, which we assume is a primary attack that incurs no penalties and should be at +6 to hit.
Same as a heavy horse, but since it's combat trained (see "Docile (Ex), above), its hooves do not count as secondary attacks. This means they are primary attacks, and don't suffer a -5 penalty to hit.
Heavy warhorse to hit stats: BAB +1 and Str 20 (+5) give it a +6 to hit. It has 2 hoof attacks which are __primary__ attacks (see "Docile (Ex)", above), at __+6__ to hit. It also gets a bite attack, which we assume is a primary attack and should be at +6 to hit.
Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage
rolls.
Regular horse to hit stats (Bestiary p.177): BAB +1 and Str 16 (+3) give it a +4 to hit. It has 2 hoof attacks which are secondary attacks (see "Docile (Ex)", below, and primary/secondary attacks on p. 302 of the Bestiary), incurring a -5 penalty. So, instead of +4 to hit with hooves, it should have a -1 to hit. However, the Bestiary lists it as -2 to hit. Is this a typo or am I missing something?
The horse is Large, which incurs an additional -1 to hit.
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Also, if you look under the animal entry in the bestiary, it says that a non-combative herbivore treats all attacks as secondary. I think it can be safely argued that a warhorse that is combat trained would treat all attacks as primary attacks. So yes, all hooves and the bite would be +5 to hit.
The horse entry in the bestiary is a standard horse (ie. light non-warhorse), so the stats for attacks are correct. BAB +1, STR +3, -1 for size, -5 for being "docile" or non-combative = -2 on two hooves.
The heavy warhorse attack stats are BAB +1, STR +5 (advanced template!), -1 for size = a +5 on all attacks, including bite.
Also, if you look under the animal entry in the bestiary, it says that a non-combative herbivore treats all attacks as secondary. I think it can be safely argued that a warhorse that is combat trained would treat all attacks as primary attacks. So yes, all hooves and the bite would be +5 to hit.
The horse entry in the bestiary is a standard horse (ie. light non-warhorse), so the stats for attacks are correct. BAB +1, STR +3, -1 for size, -5 for being "docile" or non-combative = -2 on two hooves.
The heavy warhorse attack stats are BAB +1, STR +5 (advanced template!), -1 for size = a +5 on all attacks, including bite.
Thanks, William.
I definitely think warhorses' (horses given the combat trick described in the Handle Animal skill) hooves are primary attacks, based on the wording of the Horse entry in the Bestiary:
Docile (Ex) Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill on page 97 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook), a horse’s hooves are treated as secondary attacks.
Paizo Employee James Jacobs Creative Director Nov 25, 2009, 02:30 pm | FLAG | LIST
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James Jacobs
War trained is actually detailed in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook under the description of "Handle Animal," on page 98. Of course, there it's called "Combat Training." It's one of the "general purpose" trainings you can give an animal. As detailed on page 177 of the Bestiary, horses in particular gain a special benefit once they're combat trained—their hooves are from that point treated as primary weapons, not secondary ones.In any case, once the Cavalier goes to print, the language in the class about "war trained" will be cleaned up.
Different topic, but he clears up the question on whether the hooves are primary.
