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There are several old threads on the spell awaken, but none seem to answer some basic questions (unless they are buried in the archives).
So here are the things I am interested in getting other peoples opinions on:
Q1)The creatures type changes from Animal to magical beast (augmented animal). Does this mean its Hit Dice increase from D8s to D10?
I have always assumed no, but templates that change a creatures type tend to change its HD so I may be wrong.
Q2) If the creature had been 'trained for war' before the awakening, it knew how to wear barding. Does it retain this ability once it is awakened?
I have always assumed yes, even though this breaks the magical beast rules which state they are not proficient with any armour.
Q3) Assuming that the answer to Q2 is yes, how does an awakened animal learn to use armour if it was not trained for war before the spell was cast? Does it have to expend feats, or would you be generous and just allow it to train with armour?
The druid in my group has just got to the level where Awaken is an option and I am interested on other peoples opinions.
1) No the Hit Dice do not change
2) Yes, if the animal was profient in armor then awakened version woudl be as well. If it has the armor listed in it description it is proficient in that specific type or armor.
3) Two ways to get armor proficiency. a) use a feat, b) when the awakened creature gets enough xp to level add a class level and then the awakened creature will get all the armor and weapon profs from that class.
Awakened Cave Bear with levels in Barbarian can get pretty mean.
I am very surprised by the ruling that the hit die on a d8 animal doesn't increase to a d10. Where does this come from?
Well it's not specifically stated in the spell description (where they get +2 HD). In the Bestiary a Magical Beast is stated as having a d10 HD.
My take would be to grant them the D10 (they have been transformed after all) and grant them the stuff they've learned previously.
Now of course, the awakened creature has basically become a new member of the party and should be trested as such.
Cheers
Mark
I would like to see a ruling from the devs on the hit dice. It flies in the face of everything else Paizo did to simplify things when creating characters at higher levels.
It would seem much more to fit the way Paizo has redone such things to say that when you become a magical animal, your hit-die's go up.
The down side is, he's technically not a companion anymore, he's an NPC character (perhaps a follower via leadership).
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
There are several old threads on the spell awaken, but none seem to answer some basic questions (unless they are buried in the archives).
So here are the things I am interested in getting other peoples opinions on:
Q1)The creatures type changes from Animal to magical beast (augmented animal). Does this mean its Hit Dice increase from D8s to D10?
I have always assumed no, but templates that change a creatures type tend to change its HD so I may be wrong.Q2) If the creature had been 'trained for war' before the awakening, it knew how to wear barding. Does it retain this ability once it is awakened?
I have always assumed yes, even though this breaks the magical beast rules which state they are not proficient with any armour.Q3) Assuming that the answer to Q2 is yes, how does an awakened animal learn to use armour if it was not trained for war before the spell was cast? Does it have to expend feats, or would you be generous and just allow it to train with armour?
The druid in my group has just got to the level where Awaken is an option and I am interested on other peoples opinions.
Q1)
The creatures type changes from Animal to magical beast (augmented animal). It gains everything the magical beast type grants, including the Hit Dice increase from D8s to D10?Q2)
The creature should not lose any ability it had prior to becoming Awakened and changing to the magical beast type.
Q3)
As a magical beast with, among other things, a human level intelligence etc, the Awakened creature can now take any feat it wants, including armor training feats. If it was previously war trained in some way, one solution would be to allow the appropriate armor training as a bonus feat.
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I would like to see a ruling from the devs on the hit dice. It flies in the face of everything else Paizo did to simplify things when creating characters at higher levels.
It would seem much more to fit the way Paizo has redone such things to say that when you become a magical animal, your hit-die's go up.
The down side is, he's technically not a companion anymore, he's an NPC character (perhaps a follower via leadership).
Let's look at what Paizo says happen when you change things. Like adding templates.
Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves.
Type: Creature type changes to dragon. Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves.
Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves.
Type: The creature's type changes to undead. Do not recalculate BAB, saves, or skill ranks.
Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial Hit Dice to d8s.
Type: The creature's type changes to undead.
Hit Dice: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s.
Type: The creature's type changes to undead.
Hit Dice: Drop HD gained from class levels (minimum of 1) and change racial HD to d8s
Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal).
In the changes above 3 do not change the hit dice size and 3 do change. The 3 that do make the change are all undead, while the 3 that do not are living creatures.
I see it that if you have a change in type of a living creature to another living creature the hit dice do NOT change.
When changing into an undead creature a change in hit dice does occur due to the change in metabolics (aka no more con score)
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In the changes above 3 do not change the hit dice size and 3 do change. The 3 that do make the change are all undead, while the 3 that do not are living creatures.I see it that if you have a change in type of a living creature to another living creature the hit dice do NOT change.
When changing into an undead creature a change in hit dice does occur due to the change in metabolics (aka no more con score)
Hmmm,
Ok, your logic is good. I had forgotten that Paizo got rid of the changing HD's for the half-dragon/celestial/outsider templates. However, you will also notice that on all the ones you listed above, they specifically listed one way or the other. It would be nice to have the consistency of having it spelled out, rather than inferred.
2) Yes, if the animal was proficient in armor then awakened version would be as well. If it has the armor listed in it description it is proficient in that specific type or armor.
That's why they call it an AUGMENTED ANIMAL. It is a magical beast, but has tons of traits and stuff left over from its former animal status.
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Hmmm,
Ok, your logic is good. I had forgotten that Paizo got rid of the changing HD's for the half-dragon/celestial/outsider templates. However, you will also notice that on all the ones you listed above, they specifically listed one way or the other. It would be nice to have the consistency of having it spelled out, rather than inferred.
Don't forget the FAQ button! The more people that click it, the better chance of an official answer!!!
Creative Director
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| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
An awakened animal's HD type does not change. And yeah; hit that FAQ flag!
If the animal knew how to wear armor before, it retains that option after it's awakened. If it didn't know how to wear armor before, after it's awakened it needs to spend a feat like normal. Or barring that, an awakened animal can take class levels, of course, that grant it armor proficiency automatically. That's probably the single largest advantage an awakened animal has over a normal animal.
Awakened dinosaurs - especially advanced ones - make for spectacularly nasty foes too! ^_^
Awakened dinosaurs - especially advanced ones - make for spectacularly nasty foes too! ^_^
Yeah, look at James. Would you want to tangle with him?
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An awakened animal's HD type does not change. And yeah; hit that FAQ flag!
If the animal knew how to wear armor before, it retains that option after it's awakened. If it didn't know how to wear armor before, after it's awakened it needs to spend a feat like normal. Or barring that, an awakened animal can take class levels, of course, that grant it armor proficiency automatically. That's probably the single largest advantage an awakened animal has over a normal animal.
So an awakened animal with 3d8 HD now has 5d8 hd? Or 3d8+2d10?
So nothing but the type name changes? No BaB increase? No gaining darkvision or low light vision if they didn't start with it?
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Creative Director
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An awakened animal's HD type does not change. And yeah; hit that FAQ flag!
If the animal knew how to wear armor before, it retains that option after it's awakened. If it didn't know how to wear armor before, after it's awakened it needs to spend a feat like normal. Or barring that, an awakened animal can take class levels, of course, that grant it armor proficiency automatically. That's probably the single largest advantage an awakened animal has over a normal animal.
So an awakened animal with 3d8 HD now has 5d8 hd? Or 3d8+2d10?
So nothing but the type name changes? No BaB increase? No gaining darkvision or low light vision if they didn't start with it?
An awakened animal gains 2d8 HD. Its BaB does not change, It doesn't gain darkvision or low light vision if they didn't start with it.
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An awakened animal gains 2d8 HD. Its BaB does not change, It doesn't gain darkvision or low light vision if they didn't start with it.
So nothing but the type name changes? No BaB increase? No gaining darkvision or low light vision if they didn't start with it?
Thanks James!!!
Wow! So the Awakened animal's type changes to magical beast (augmented animal) but it gets non of the abilities etc listed under magical beast ... huh, that's not how I was reading it. OK then, there we have it.
So, essentially, the animal gets only what is spelled out (no pun intended :) in the Awaken spell, although it can then do all those cool things like take class levels, etc. That certainly makes things more streamlined.
Thanks again James!!!!
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One follow up ... what about skill points?
Well, you gain retroactive skill points as your intelligence increases in Pathfinder, so I would say that given you don't gain anything but the TYPE from becoming a Magical Beast (in game I think the only effect is spells that target animals only no longer affect the creature), you would gain skill points that you could drop in animal appropriate skills for both your new hit dice and increase in skill points per level available from your increased intelligence (if appropriate).
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An awakened animal gains 2d8 HD. Its BaB does not change, It doesn't gain darkvision or low light vision if they didn't start with it.
So those extra 2HD don't result in an increase in BAB?
What about other HD-related issues, such as, saves, skill ranks, feats, poison DC, and ability score increases?
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An awakened animal gains 2d8 HD. Its BaB does not change, It doesn't gain darkvision or low light vision if they didn't start with it.So those extra 2HD don't result in an increase in BAB?
What about other HD-related issues, such as, saves, skill ranks, feats, poison DC, and ability score increases?
I think he meant it doesn't go from 3/4 BAB (for animals) to 1/1 BAB (for magical beasts).
You need to be more careful James! That sort of thing causes panic and rioting in the streets! :P
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The main advantage of the change from "animal" to "magical beast" is "because it's no longer an animal, it's immune to effects that only work on animals." Everything else from this change (the little that there is) is gravy.
Though it is now a magical beast so no more casting Animal Growth on it.
quick question: Is there a growth spell that works on magical beasts? I have an awakened polar bear and would like to have an option. I have access to 5th level mage and 8th level druid spells.
Thanks!
-Matt