That sounds right. The whole deal about whether it's arcane or divine has to deal with the fact that some spells actually have a divine version or arcane version (such as Bear's Endurance) and even if the spell is on their list they still have to use UMD to use it because it's of different type.
Now with your warmage, since it's not on his list he still needs to use UMD to read it off.
Yeah, the warmage can't cast spells from scrolls if those spells aren't on his list without using UMD. Sadly.
Slight Derail.
I have a player with a Warmage and as we are converting to PF, the conversion is actually easy.
But we are discussing the 0-Level spell issue.
As 0-Level spells never run out, is it fair to give them edge with their unlimited 0-Level Spells?
I'm hedging yes as this is their bread and butter, and they have very few other options for spells (aside from Eclectic Learning).
Slight Derail.
I have a player with a Warmage and as we are converting to PF, the conversion is actually easy.
But we are discussing the 0-Level spell issue.
As 0-Level spells never run out, is it fair to give them edge with their unlimited 0-Level Spells?
I'm hedging yes as this is their bread and butter, and they have very few other options for spells (aside from Eclectic Learning).
I've always found the Warmage to be generally weak. I actually gave it a lot of additional oomph and some more options when I revised it to Pathfinder. I most certainly let them add their Edge to their cantrips. It's not much of a big deal, in all honesty.
I've always found the Warmage to be generally weak. I actually gave it a lot of additional oomph and some more options when I revised it to Pathfinder. I most certainly let them add their Edge to their cantrips. It's not much of a big deal, in all honesty.
They can be a pretty big glass cannon or a very 1 trick pony. IIFC, RAW says they cannot add edge to cantrips. But I'm with Disciple of Sakura here, adding 2, 3 or more points to spells that deal 1d3 or 1d4 that don't increase dice by class level?
Not gonna break anything after about the first or second level. If it does early on, then throw it in as a class feature around 3rd or 4th level as a part of their continual learning instead of letting them add it at first.
Personally, I would replace their Warmage Edge with Intense Spells from the Evoker and let it work on any spell that does hit point damage. I would even go so far as to then let them add their intelligence on top of that, but that could be overkill.
Honestly, the warmage edge is awesome at 1st level, cool at 2nd, and then quickly becomes irrelevent as your +1-3 damage doesn't add up to much. Changing a cantrip from 1d3 damage to 1d3+3 isn't gonna shake the earth.
I've always found the Warmage to be generally weak. I actually gave it a lot of additional oomph and some more options when I revised it to Pathfinder. I most certainly let them add their Edge to their cantrips. It's not much of a big deal, in all honesty.They can be a pretty big glass cannon or a very 1 trick pony. IIFC, RAW says they cannot add edge to cantrips. But I'm with Disciple of Sakura here, adding 2, 3 or more points to spells that deal 1d3 or 1d4 that don't increase dice by class level?
Not gonna break anything after about the first or second level. If it does early on, then throw it in as a class feature around 3rd or 4th level as a part of their continual learning instead of letting them add it at first.
Having GM'd for a warmage PC a while back, where the character in question had (quite reasonably) an 18 INT, I can see all manner of problems popping up with allowing edge to be applied to cantrips -- particularly at low levels, and moreso with (for example) elven bonuses to INT.
Imagine - a group of orcs charge your low-level party's makeshift barricade. There are at least a dozen of them remaining, and your party is somewhat wounded and low on spells. Looks like it'll be a tough fight for the party, right? Except that the warmage has acid splash, and doing 1d3+5 manages to down half of the opposition over half-a-dozen rounds. Despite being nearly out of useful level spells, he's more effective than the fighter or the rogue. And what was meant to be a challenging finale becomes a cakewalk.
Cantrips definitely shouldn't have edge applied to them, at least not in the unlimited-casting Pathfinder ruleset. I'm fine with them in the limited 0-level spells of 3.5, but Pathfinder... not so much.
Taking away edge on 0 level spells weakens the class overall. A 2nd level Conjurer with similar Int would be able to shoot an acid dart for 1d6+1 eight times per day. That's only 2.5 damage less on average than the 20 Int warmage, and honestly there shouldn't be a whole lot of 20 int warmages running around at 2nd level since warmage is a Charisma based caster (they just get bonus damage from Int). A more fair comparison would probably be a warmage with a 14 Int, and he'd do 1d3+2 compared to the Conjurer's 1d6+1. That's .5 damage less on average for the warmage. Of course his acid splash is unlimited instead of 8 times per day, but unless you're planning to push the PCs far beyond their limits I don't think that the 8 times a day thing should come up a lot.
If that still won't allay your concerns consider the simple house rule of limiting edge (at least on cantrips) to +1 per caster level. That way by the time that freakishly intelligent elven warmage is getting +5 damage it will no longer be a big deal. I'm passionate about this largely because having 0 level spells actually be useful is one of the cool (and not overpowering) things about the warmage.
I think replacing warmage edge with something which can be taken as a feat would be a mistake. Edge has a good fun factor. In addition to boosting already good spells a little it can make stinkers like Acid Arrow fun in a way few other things can. Speaking of spells without SR, the biggest balance concern with running a warmage in PF is probably bringing the various Orb spells into your PF game.
I've always found the Warmage to be generally weak. I actually gave it a lot of additional oomph and some more options when I revised it to Pathfinder. I most certainly let them add their Edge to their cantrips. It's not much of a big deal, in all honesty.Slight Derail.
I have a player with a Warmage and as we are converting to PF, the conversion is actually easy.
But we are discussing the 0-Level spell issue.
As 0-Level spells never run out, is it fair to give them edge with their unlimited 0-Level Spells?
I'm hedging yes as this is their bread and butter, and they have very few other options for spells (aside from Eclectic Learning).
In what way did you add oompf? Warmage was my favorite 3.5 class, so I'm understandably curious :P
In what way did you add oompf? Warmage was my favorite 3.5 class, so I'm understandably curious :PI've always found the Warmage to be generally weak. I actually gave it a lot of additional oomph and some more options when I revised it to Pathfinder. I most certainly let them add their Edge to their cantrips. It's not much of a big deal, in all honesty.Slight Derail.
I have a player with a Warmage and as we are converting to PF, the conversion is actually easy.
But we are discussing the 0-Level spell issue.
As 0-Level spells never run out, is it fair to give them edge with their unlimited 0-Level Spells?
I'm hedging yes as this is their bread and butter, and they have very few other options for spells (aside from Eclectic Learning).
I've been tooling with all the "spontaneous specialists" for my campaign (the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Healer, Warmage, and Summoner) to make them actually competitive with the wizard or sorcerer. My general thought process was that they needed to excel beyond the core arcane/divine classes in their primary specialty, since they had precious little they could do beyond that. Thus, I've whipped up my Spontaneous Specialists Revisited document. It's got the mechanics for all the classes except my thorough overhaul of the summoner, with which I was very disappointed. I had originally been planning on leaving that one alone. I'm also hoping to whip up a spontaneous Transmutation focused class, since it's the only other primary school that hasn't been touched upon. Probably work the Eidolon's Evolution mechanic into the class, but as a self-buffer.
So far, there hasn't been any real issues with the classes that I've seen in play. The Warmage doesn't even use her Edged cantrips that much. Hope you enjoy!
I like them all!
Nice work :)
I like them all!
Nice work :)
Thank you.
If you are interested, I did conversions of the beguler, dark necromancer, and the warmage about 8 months ago. Go to www.mediafire.com/ElghinnLightbringer.
Imagine - a group of orcs charge your low-level party's makeshift barricade. There are at least a dozen of them remaining, and your party is somewhat wounded and low on spells. Looks like it'll be a tough fight for the party, right? Except that the warmage has acid splash, and doing 1d3+5 manages to down half of the opposition over half-a-dozen rounds. Despite being nearly out of useful level spells, he's more effective than the fighter or the rogue. And what was meant to be a challenging finale becomes a cakewalk.
Now imagine your fighter has a mighty (+3) composite longbow - he's doing even more damage and at greater range. That level of damage is no more than most characters can dish out at range at any level above about third, and many can do it much better.
Warmages are actually pretty weak as casting classes go, letting them have some goodies is hardly broken.