Hi all,
I've been playing Pathfinder for a while, am a huge fan and will certainly continue to play it. At the same time, however, I have begun working on an RPG of my own. Initially, the game was (and still is, largely) a d20 iteration, though as I add, change and tweak rules it seems to be getting further from being a 3.x edition refurb, and is shifting into something else. I say this as a pre-emptive (admittedly weak) apology in case it turns out that this thread be placed in the wrong forum.
All of that aside, the reason I am posting here is to see if there is any interest at all in the game I am working on. Assuming that I am not breaking any forum rules by posting this (and I sincerely hope that I am not!) I'll continue with my query.
The game I am working is retains the core mechanic of 3.x edition DnD, although I have exchanged the d20 for 2 (occasionally 1, occasionally 1) d10 for the sake of unity with other mechanics that I have added.
The biggest change that I have tried to incorporate, is that of theme or mood. As stated, I enjoy pathfinder and will continue to play it. As the game I am working on utilises a shift of mood the two are not incompatible - I will continue to use Pathfinder for more heroic fantasy, and will use my own game for a kind of fantasy that I can only describe as grittier.
For the game I am working on (which really needs a title) I want less heroic role-play. I want less of a focus on player power (though it will still be there), and more of a focus on the savageness of the game world, the brutality of combat and the inherent deadliness of nearly every situation that the players will encounter. The game aims to create characters that are ordinary, though able, and tales that are grounded, yet exciting and climactic.
To achieve this I changed several rules, and rules systems. First of which was the combat system. I removed the hit point system. I don't have any problem with the hit point system in 3.x or pathfinder, they suit the mood perfectly and I have no complaints here. However, I needed a system that re-itterated the seriousness and brutality of combat. I needed it to be the case that no warrior (regardless of level) can stand before an enemy secure in the knowledge that they could shake off the effects of a first attack due to hit point total.
So damage is simulated through a roll to wound and determine the extent of wound (in a single roll) mechanic that reflects the kind of feel that I was going for. I've made it so that you don't want to get hit at all, ever.
I changed the magic system. Spells are still measured in levels of power but are also rated in terms of complexity which means that there is a single spell list.(I unfortunately discovered after several days of congratulating myself on this concept that it had already been developed, used and published by a much greater games designer than myself - I hope he wont mind that I intend to make use of it anyway.) There is no spells per day and all castings require a roll to successfully cast -a magical equivalent to a combat attack roll, with some spells requiring an actual attack roll in addition to the casting roll) before effects are worked out. The magic using classes (adventurer, disciple, earthen?, sorcerer and wizard) are limited as to the complexity of spells cast-able, with adventurers and sorcerers also being limited as to the number of spells known.
Character races have become more generic and (with the exception of humans) only receive such bonuses and special abilities as provided by their genes. Additional abilities are selected through cultural customisation. Finally, each character purchases a number of background skills before going on to choose class.
All classes are stripped of most of their abilities, which are then offered back to them as talents to be purchased. There are less classes as a result (8 - though this is still being decided) but, hopefully, more customisation. Whilst talents are restricted by class, multi-classing still remains a viable and useful consideration, and characters are not penalised by this. In fact, the idea of prestige classes remains (though these are strictly limited to membership of a particular in game group) in order to foster additional diversity.
Skill have been consolidated, combined and occasionally expanded in a similar to vein to other d20 variants.
Feats remain, though will be changed, expanded, altered, removed etc as necessary, and represent broader abilities available to all characters regardless of class - though possibly being limited through race, culture, traits and so on.
Combat has some significant changes. Firstly, turns (whilst remaining at six seconds) only allow a character to achieve a single major action - move or attack or cast - a single minor action - step 5ft or open close an object or retrieve an item - and free actions.
All melee attacks are categorised as to whether they utilise strength or dexterity for damage, in a similar manner to ranged attacks - being thrown or projectile. Iterative attacks are gone, additional attacks are earned through dual wielding, through feats or talents or through other special abilities. Making multiple attacks, if eligible remains a major action.
Shields provide cover and are readily susceptible to any damage that they protect you from.
In play-testing combat seems to resolve a a great deal of time adjusting position, preparing and readying attacks and seeking opportunities and a very rapid brutal few rounds of orchestrating brutal attacks. All the time with ranged combatants take pot shots and culling the enemy from the rear - providing yet another serious consideration for any enemy combatants.
The world and the creatures in it have changed - with most creatures being re-imagined for this game.
Anyway, I suspect that that they may be way more information than anyone was intending to read so will stop there. I am about to post a second post(?) with the specific questions I wanted to ask.
If anyone has an questions for me regarding this project, please feel free to ask - I am hoping at least some people will.
simon
OK - actual questions I wanted to ask.
1. Is there room for another d20 version?
2. Does that what I have suggested so far seem different enough to make the project worthy of your consideration? Would anyone be interested in this idea if I was to publish and (indulge me here) sell it?
3. If you can garner a feel for what I have in mind, and it appeals to you, what would you like to see in such a game?
4. The game would be fully supported with adventures, campaigns and additional material, as well as campaign setting material - which would follow a format of distantly connected lands and themes in a 'tales of ...[gothic themed land] or [medieval european themed land] kind of style. All of these lands reside in the same world but have little or no interaction with one another, there are no maps and GM's can focus on whichever ones they wanted... and so on. Would this be important?
5. Beyond the core rules, a supplement for GM's, adventures, bestiaries and campaign settings there won't be much additional crunch content. Would this be problematic?
6. As a d20 varient, is there much appeal in this game following a PHB, DMG, MM format? Should layout remain similar to DnD, Pathfinder etc?
7. How do people stand on free stuff and beta's?
8. Am I allowed to post stuff like this? I feel like I am advertising (which I suppose I am) a product that doesn't exist, and am not to sure how allowed that is...
That may do for now. More to come :)
simon
1. Is there room for another d20 version?The question isn't is there room, the question is, can you bring something to the table people find interesting.
I'm thinking so.
But also depends on whether people maintain an interest in d20 variants, or if people have had enough of them.
Is there anything in what I have said that you find interesting?
Idunnojohnmaybe - I've been tinkering with something off and on as well. I'd love to see more details to see how you handle various aspects of designing a system. If you have an online site where you are managing this project I'd love to take a look at it.
Idunnojohnmaybe - I've been tinkering with something off and on as well. I'd love to see more details to see how you handle various aspects of designing a system. If you have an online site where you are managing this project I'd love to take a look at it.
I don't have a site as yet. That's the all important next step of my diabolical plan. But it would be pretty sparse at the moment, most of the rules are spread between my mind, my notebooks, pages and indesign, although I suspect not a great deal of time away from an alpha document.
You're welcome to ask anything you'd like to know, or PM me if you'd prefer.
As soon as I do have a website up and running. Community and feedback are central to this idea.
6. As a d20 varient, is there much appeal in this game following a PHB, DMG, MM format? Should layout remain similar to DnD, Pathfinder etc?
The main appeal of the PHB/DMG/MM format for me is that none of the individual books become too unwieldy. The PF Core Rulebook is a bit on the large side when it comes to ease of use around the table, but there are other rule books that are worse offenders. Some are almost impossible to use due to their sheer size (the Ptolus core book, for instance).
As long as you stay away from making huge books that are impossible to use effectively, it doesn't really matter if you make it 1, 2, 3, or any other number of core books.
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OK - actual questions I wanted to ask.
1. Is there room for another d20 version?
Yes.
2. Does that what I have suggested so far seem different enough to make the project worthy of your consideration? Would anyone be interested in this idea if I was to publish and (indulge me here) sell it?
So far, no. Need more concrete examples.
3. If you can garner a feel for what I have in mind, and it appeals to you, what would you like to see in such a game?
n/a
4. The game would be fully supported with adventures, campaigns and additional material, as well as campaign setting material - which would follow a format of distantly connected lands and themes in a 'tales of ...[gothic themed land] or [medieval european themed land] kind of style. All of these lands reside in the same world but have little or no interaction with one another, there are no maps and GM's can focus on whichever ones they wanted... and so on. Would this be important?
On maps? Yes. There's a discussion about this on one of LPJ's campaign settings.
5. Beyond the core rules, a supplement for GM's, adventures, bestiaries and campaign settings there won't be much additional crunch content. Would this be problematic?
Depends on how interesting the campaign setting is.
6. As a d20 varient, is there much appeal in this game following a PHB, DMG, MM format? Should layout remain similar to DnD, Pathfinder etc?
I'd prefer a single book, personally.
7. How do people stand on free stuff and beta's?
Like both of them.
Are - Thanks for the feedback. So far, it is looking to be 2 main rule books - 1 for players and 1 GM's. In addition there will be a series of bestiaries (a general one followed, by several themed ones), a range of adventures (arranged into campaign arcs - a la adventure paths), a series of campaign journals tied into the regions of the campaign arcs.
When considering layout, ease of use an portability have been primary concerns. Thus far the templates I have designed and have been using are based around a crown quarto sized perfect bound (ie softback) rule book. Crown quarto (without getting too specific) is between A4 and A5, and is an easily portable and viewable size. In addition, I have found that when viewing the PDF on a laptop or a computer with a wide screen display, this format allows the user to portray two-sheet spreads clearly - especially useful for browsing rules and locating tables.
Joela - Again, thanks for the feedback.
What would you like in terms of concrete examples? i am somewhat unsure as to how to demonstrate this game without providing a workup of the rules. What did you have in mind? Some play-test examples/campaign reports or rules summaries perhaps?
Also, would you happen to have a link to that conversation regarding maps and campaign settings? I think I should have been more clear when explaining. The campaign journals will map the regions, but there will be no world map per se. The campaign journals will have details regarding where one area is in relation to another but inter-region travel is very rare - with the exception of powerful heroes and possibly the PC's.
The idea behind this is that each campaign journal details one region, and the campaign arc will provide a series of linked adventures, encounters and events that occur within that region. GM's can include the regions they want or complete remove, renovate or replace the regions that they don't. It also helps to cement the idea that each region and campaign arc is almost entirely distinct from another.
I realise that GM's have always been able to do this with their campaign settings, but I thought I'd begin with that modularity out of the gate.
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I honestly think you have a fantasy heartbreaker here.
When there are products like Fantasy Craft, True20, M&M and Trailblazer out there (not to meantion non-d20 games like Mongoose RuneQuest, Savage Worlds etc), you really would need to make your game something really special - being a d20 derivative means your setting really needs to shine, and I mean being so fundamentally awesome that it makes people want to give up on time they could spend playing those other games (including PF and D&D).
Also, unless you have a lot of backup, I really doubt you could produce all the material you suggest at a quality, price and rate that the customers will want.
Personally, if I can't be bothered to pursue the Pathfinder RPG because I don't think it is worth my time reading and learning the rules (despite the excellent quality of the products, the level of support and the popularity of the system) then you really would have to blow me away with yoru book to make me even give it a second thought.
I honestly think you have a fantasy heartbreaker here.
When there are products like Fantasy Craft, True20, M&M and Trailblazer out there (not to meantion non-d20 games like Mongoose RuneQuest, Savage Worlds etc), you really would need to make your game something really special - being a d20 derivative means your setting really needs to shine, and I mean being so fundamentally awesome that it makes people want to give up on time they could spend playing those other games (including PF and D&D).
Also, unless you have a lot of backup, I really doubt you could produce all the material you suggest at a quality, price and rate that the customers will want.
Personally, if I can't be bothered to pursue the Pathfinder RPG because I don't think it is worth my time reading and learning the rules (despite the excellent quality of the products, the level of support and the popularity of the system) then you really would have to blow me away with yoru book to make me even give it a second thought.
You are possibly correct.
You'd be undoubtedly correct if my aims with this product were to claim a significant portion of the market, or to displace any other fantasy RPG producer out there.
However, since my aims are more modest, aiming for a smaller community of like-minded individual players and GM's (anything above the number needed to support the product is a very welcome bonus), I don't think that I'm aiming for anything over-lofty or unlikely here.
The entirety of this line is focused around the campaign world(s) and the adventures that will be provided, and around producing a community centred and focused (must buy thesaurus) atmosphere. Some rules needed to be changed to facilitate that.
I enjoy playing pathfinder, amongst other games, and will continue to do so. There are others who foster a similar approach to gaming and utilising several systems when there isn't one that specifically fits their needs. I don't want to pull fans away from other products.
At the same time I do not envisage an audience that is out-right awed or blown away by the concepts I am offering (in the way that Pathfinder does for many of its fans). I don't intend to wow any body. Rather, I would like to provide a set of world and campaign settings that accomplish some of the things that gamers would like to see in their rpgs but unfortunately do not. If someone can look at my game and think 'I always wanted something like (or a bit like) that and here it is' I will be a very happy man.
Naturally, however I aim to do the things I do want to very well with this game and it's supporting products.
You are certainly correct that I would require additional staff and support and one the aims of this thread was to see at which stage that would be required. I'd need a product before I can expand it, and I'd need an idea as to the welcome such a product would be likely to receive.
Bearing all I have said in mind, you are still probably correct. But just in case you're not, I'd still like to see where this can go.
Simon
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However, since my aims are more modest, aiming for a smaller community of like-minded individual players and GM's (anything above the number needed to support the product is a very welcome bonus), I don't think that I'm aiming for anything over-lofty or unlikely here.
Out of interest, how many customers do you think you would need to support the product?
The entirety of this line is focused around the campaign world(s) and the adventures that will be provided, and around producing a community centred and focused (must buy thesaurus) atmosphere. Some rules needed to be changed to facilitate that.
You may be better off writing for an existing system if the focus is on the world and adventures (that is what Paizo did, using D&D as their chosen system). That way you can tap into an existing community of players.
You can always add some rules changes for your setting, e.g. limiting hit points, to tweak the system to better fit your setting.
Or maybe better yet, write a systemless setting and adventures and then create rules supplements for specific systems. look at Green Ronin's Freeport setting for an example of this, they have a core setting book that is systemless and then rules companions for D&D3.5 (3rd Era), D&D4e (via Expeditious Retreat to sidestep the GSL clauses), True20, Savage Worlds, Castles & Crusades, and soon Pathfinder RPG.
I enjoy playing pathfinder, amongst other games, and will continue to do so. There are others who foster a similar approach to gaming and utilising several systems when there isn't one that specifically fits their needs. I don't want to pull fans away from other products.
My gaming time is finite - I get one night a week to game, with a few conventions a year and an occassional Sunday game here and there. I also like many systems. The point is, if I wanted to play your game, I would have to give up the opportunity to play some other game of mine.
Basically if you want people to play your game, it will likely be at the expense of playing some other game - and you have to give them a good enough reason to make that choice.
Basically the benefit of playing your game needs to outweigh the opportunity cost of not playing anotehr game.
Anyway, I wish you luck with it. I myself am no stranger to writing RPG systems myself; I wrote a fairly large system called LowDie. It was free and I had maybe 20 people interested at one time, I doubt anyone plays it now. Mind you I did just the other day have someone ask for a copy so maybe someone does.
My Free FATE PDF seems to be a bit more successful and gets mention on RPG.net every so often saying people use it. Which is nice.
So if its just the feeling of achievement of writing your own game and having a few people playing it, then go for it. Just don't expect to earn a living from it (or be able to pay anyone to write for it) unless it is something really, really special.
Out of interest, how many customers do you think you would need to support the product?
That's a good question, and one I can't answer at present as there are several possible schemings as to how the game is to be provided, budgets for various elements of production and printing and so on.
I'm hoping some insight into possible interest may help with making some of these decisions.
I'm also considering giving away the rules PDFs for free, and charging for additional material such as campaign journals, campaign arcs and bestiaries and printed items.
You may be better off writing for an existing system if the focus is on the world and adventures (that is what Paizo did, using D&D as their chosen system). That way you can tap into an existing community of players.
You can always add some rules changes for your setting, e.g. limiting hit points, to tweak the system to better fit your setting.
This was the original aim, however so many of the rules needed tweaking that the game has become quite considerably different. It's still D20 but different enough to warrant a re-writing.
My gaming time is finite - I get one night a week to game, with a few conventions a year and an occassional Sunday game here and there. I also like many systems. The point is, if I wanted to play your game, I would have to give up the opportunity to play some other game of mine.
Basically if you want people to play your game, it will likely be at the expense of playing some other game - and you have to give them a good enough reason to make that choice.
This I can fully appreciate, and I generally do believe that there is enough to warrant the interest, time and opportunity cost of many of those who may consider it.
Anyway, I wish you luck with it. I myself am no stranger to writing RPG systems myself; I wrote a fairly large system called LowDie. It was free and I had maybe 20 people interested at one time, I doubt anyone plays it now. Mind you I did just the other day have someone ask for a copy so maybe someone does.
My Free FATE PDF seems to be a bit more successful and gets mention on RPG.net every so often saying people use it. Which is nice.
Many thanks, and likewise. I didn't know you wrote FATE. I've never played it (I have a list of things to eventually work through) but I have seen it mentioned numerous times.
Thanks DigitalMage for the criticism, advice and well-wishing.
Simon
Not to burst your bubble, but I think Monte Cooke might have already gone through much of the ground you're looking to cover in Iron Heroes.
One thing I think you're making a mistake on. A campaign that is grittier where combat is more deadly will make players focus more on player power, not less. One game that's pretty close to where you're at is Shadowrun, and that's the experience I see there.
Thank you. I will have a more detailed look at iron heroes.
In terms of players seeking power, I agree. However, the way this game handles power is different to DnD/Pathfinder in that it is not so readily available. One of the key focuses for the game and setting is that the characters are ordinary(ish) people that become heroes.
In all honesty I like players pushing the rules and looking for advantages and power gains. Hence, I am trying to create a rules set that allows for this without such activities breaking the game. Although, again, this is not intended to be the players' focus, and I don't think it will be.
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Many thanks, and likewise. I didn't know you wrote FATE. I've never played it (I have a list of things to eventually work through) but I have seen it mentioned numerous times.
Just to clarify, I didn't write FATE! :) Instead I put together a free 48 page PDF that presents a very concise version of the FATE system (created by the Evil Hat guys). It is meant as a taster of FATE for those who haven't played it before and is free, hence Free FATE.
Many thanks, and likewise. I didn't know you wrote FATE. I've never played it (I have a list of things to eventually work through) but I have seen it mentioned numerous times.Just to clarify, I didn't write FATE! :) Instead I put together a free 48 page PDF that presents a very concise version of the FATE system (created by the Evil Hat guys). It is meant as a taster of FATE for those who haven't played it before and is free, hence Free FATE.
DigitalMage - Ah, apologies. I stand (sit in fact) corrected.
LazarX - Iron Heroes seems to have both a different aim and a different approach, at least as far as I can garner from the reviews I have just read. I suspect I need to explain my intentions better.
All - I don't think I have done a stellar job of explaining myself and this idea. I'll work on the summary...
OK. I'm going to have another go at explaining what I had in mind with this project.
The main idea was for a series of campaign journals and story arcs each set in a different land or theme. These journals and arcs would be based on a d20 rule set (initially 3.5 or pathfinder) but would require at least a little adjusting to better fit the theme and atmosphere of each setting. As I began to make these changes more and more of the original rules were disappearing until it seemed like I would end up producing a manual of rules changes. Rather than having a manual of rules changes, it seemed more sensible to have a manual of rules. So I have set to work on this.
Now, as the rules exist primarily to facilitate the settings and adventures I was toying with the idea of providing the pdf for free and charging only for printed rulebooks. Obviously the journals and arcs would be sold.
This means that I have full control over the rules and the settings produced and don't have to make allowances or exceptions between one and the other, but it also means that I have to convince any potential audiences to move to a new rules set.
Hence this thread. I am hoping that the community here will help me with (more) feedback regarding the rules.
It is not so much a case as gauging interest (although that is very useful to me), but more to do with finding out what people want. I peruse these message boards (amongst others) and see countless threads commenting on a particular aspect of play or an approach to a ruling that make me think 'I agree, and have a set of rules that make less of (if at all) an issue.
Anyway, a summary of what the rules have to offer.
Firstly, I am not claiming to fix anything nor am I suggesting that anything else is broken/in need of fixing.
THE WORLD/SETTING
As stated earlier there is no world map. Not only does this mean that GM's can pick and just the areas of their world to include, it also reflects the very real case that very few of the worlds inhabitants has much of an idea as to the shape of the world. Considering the level of technology very very few people have any idea of the current state of affairs beyond their own town or valley, let alone any real knowledge of the rest of the world.
Individual regions become the focus of each campaign journal which details everything that is needed to know to run the campaign arc (a series of related adventures), as well as any other adventures or encounters the GM has in mind.
The idea is that the the various campaign arcs create a series of entirely unrelated stories set loosely within the game world.
CHARACTERS
The individuals within the world are ordinary people. You can, and often will, become powerful but not to the extent of destroying armies destroying cities and wrestling with dragons or demons. The highest level martial characters, whilst adept at avoiding blows and battling all manner of enemy remain just as squishy as their lowest level counterparts. Whilst armour, experience and magic can protect them death is at least as likely, and certainly as final.
CHARACTER CREATION
Character background and culture is emphasised through background traits and skills. Races are expanded through cultural considerations. There are currently seven races.
Classes (of which there are presently eight) allow expansive customisation yet protect individual roles or niches. The eight available classes are: The Adventurer, the Brawler, the Disciple, the Earthen, the Marshall, the Rogue, the Sorcerer and the Wizard.
TALENTS AND FEATS
Each character receives a feat at every odd level. In addition, each character receives a class talent at first level and every even level thereafter, ensuring that a character remains heavily shaped by its current class.
Each class has an expansive list of talents that allow members of that class to customise their characters role extensively.
COMBAT
As stated it is brutal. Combat rewards preparation and well planned and executed assaults are fast and brutal, whereas surprise encounters are confusing and chaotic - as they should be. Turns are shorter and charges decisive. A premium is put on deliberation and decision rather than staying power and grinding. Players retain a sense of danger.
MAGIC
All magic is spontaneous. The manner in which a magic user is able to cast its spells is one of the primary differences between the five magic using classes. All classes have a ten level spell progression and are able to cast spells of a level up to half of their current character level*. There is one spell list with spells designated by complexity, particular classes are limited as to the complexity of spells that they can cast.
Magic flows through the world and touches all things. Wizards understand this power and are able to manipulate it, bringing it to their will, begging or borrowing favours from it. Similarly, an Earthen through its bond with the world, and through its understand of the flow is able to request specific effects. The Adventurer and the Sorcerer, on the other hand demand, and force the world to its will, bending the flow of magic as they see fit. Finally, the disciple can request, by virtue of a patron deity that certain spells be evoked.
MAGIC ITEMS
Magical items are rare, and whilst several 'generic' items have begun to show in various places, most items are individual and renowned.
The game matches player-encounter difficulty by character potential without making any predictions based on equipment or particular items. Whilst some characters may encounter magical items, there are no readily available 'magic item marts', or door stop delivery services.
*I'll be changing one or other use of 'level'.
Is that any more help?
It would be great if anyone with an interest had specific questions to ask regarding details. I am having a hard time knowing how much information, and about what to divulge. To the extent that I feel I may have just waffled on and produced nothing of much use...
1. Is there room for another d20 version?simon
Simon, do you mean to put the question in regard to market? Because I think the answer to that is no, and I'm guessing some other d20 version makers named in this thread are finding that out, based on the view from the outside.
Simon, do you mean to put the question in regard to market? Because I think the answer to that is no, and I'm guessing some other d20 version makers named in this thread are finding that out, based on the view from the outside.
1. Is there room for another d20 version?simon
Kind of, yeah. I mostly want to know if my game is going to be dismissed instantly because a number of people have lost with D20 as a rules system, or have moved through several to Pathfinder and don't to move again.
The reassurance I am looking for (of course) is that there are enough people - a handful at this point would do - to make all of the effort involved with continuing this project worthwhile. Again though, I should say that I am not interesting in any volume of sales beyond what is necessary to sustain this project and its supplements. An integral part of this project will be a website and a close community to continue and develop the idea further.
To be completely honest, I don't think that it is the case that there aren't sufficient people out there would enjoy this product and product line. I'm more concerned with my ability to find them, and convince them to part with their time, a point that has been addressed by DigitalMage.
My thought is at this point system per se is not a selling point with a new market-wide demand. Sell your game as your game, whatever mechanical system you use. But if your goal is really to self-publish your game rather than to make any money off of it, you probably don't need to worry about it much. Maybe I just don't have a clear idea of how many people would be worth it, for you. Sounds like you know, though.
Even if Iron Heroes isn't what you are looking to create, I suggest looking through it for ideas and to see what has already been done. Arcana Evolved, Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might, True 20, and many others are all good places to compare what has come before.
How different are you making this game? Does it need to be a full rulebook, or can it be a smaller book that just points out the differences? Will someone be able to use their existing monster books and easily convert them to your system?
In this market of PDFs and print-on-demand, there is room for a lot of alternatives. But competition is still steep, and you have to do something to stand out against the sea of RPGs.
My thought is at this point system per se is not a selling point with a new market-wide demand. Sell your game as your game, whatever mechanical system you use. But if your goal is really to self-publish your game rather than to make any money off of it, you probably don't need to worry about it much. Maybe I just don't have a clear idea of how many people would be worth it, for you. Sounds like you know, though.
I'd agree. This system (with its d20 roots) is used because its the right system for the job, so I'd be using it regardless. I'd just like to know if there is any interest for the game, particularly if people know that it involves both a rules change, and a rules change that is rooted in d20.
I probably should have chosen a better title and approach to this thread.
Incidentally, would YOU play this game? And how much more information would you require before making that decision, assuming you've not yet made it?
Even if Iron Heroes isn't what you are looking to create, I suggest looking through it for ideas and to see what has already been done. Arcana Evolved, Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might, True 20, and many others are all good places to compare what has come before.
How different are you making this game? Does it need to be a full rulebook, or can it be a smaller book that just points out the differences? Will someone be able to use their existing monster books and easily convert them to your system?
In this market of PDFs and print-on-demand, there is room for a lot of alternatives. But competition is still steep, and you have to do something to stand out against the sea of RPGs.
I have been through those books and several others, including indie productions. It's comparing with these that has made me more sure that this game would prove to be a success.
Incidentally, back when I was trying to be entirely original I discovered I had unwittingly written a clone of true20. The discovered several facets of that game that didn't quite gel for me, so rewrote it as this one.
The book is different enough that trying to remember the original rules and then the differences would get very annoying very quickly. Some mechanics and subsystem are entirely re-written and that has lead to changes elsewhere.
Existing monsters could be used but it would be sketchy and I wouldn't advise it. I'm not claiming backwards compatibility. In fact, I am aiming for a set of independent rules, of courses settings could be used with other rules sets but certain elements would work quite right. Also, the majority of monsters involve a fair amount of adapting and re-writing so there would be continuity issues.
Since the main point of your project is to sell campaigns/adventures, this should probably work just fine as long as the they are written well enough that people would buy them. The fact that people would need a new rules set to play them shouldn't be a deterrent if the adventures are really good.
It would perhaps be different if the new rules system was the main point of the project, as then you'd want people to buy into the rules as opposed to buying into the world.
I realize this is a bit off of where you are shooting, but you might consider doing an E6 game system. If you are not familiar with it, then basically it means the charactes only level up to 6th level. After that they may get additional feats and such, but never really get any more excessively powerful. This tends to keep the game grittier since even at 6th level a first level orc warrior can on occasion do some serious damage. So the character isn't going to be tackling armies of them single-handedly.
I considered making up a E6 version, but ultimately decided against it just because it would have required too much micromanaging with all the different SRD features such as monster abilities, magic items, etc. But I think there might be a real desire for some GMs to be able to have a product that they could use for their group where someone has already address all those micromanagement issues.
A new D20 variant should be multiple genre (consider fantasy, modern, scifi, etc. for mechanics) and be scalable in regards to scope of affects and damage (gritty to heroic). You should also release a character generator as part of the package, and offer the rules at a minimum price. Keep the rules streamlined and hopefully the above will create enough interest from a multitude of player bases (genres), to create its own momentum. Then you can shift focus to advanced player guides, adventures, and world building, but this also should be shared in some type of web site, i.e. virtual community (take advantage of the Internet).
I would focus on levels 1-10 first.
Why do people take all of my ideas? Nothing specific, but the idea of making a new d20 game. But seriously, I can't think of any gamer that didn't once think "I could make my own game system and it will be awesome!" So, yeah.
My thought is at this point system per se is not a selling point with a new market-wide demand. Sell your game as your game, whatever mechanical system you use. But if your goal is really to self-publish your game rather than to make any money off of it, you probably don't need to worry about it much. Maybe I just don't have a clear idea of how many people would be worth it, for you. Sounds like you know, though.I'd agree. This system (with its d20 roots) is used because its the right system for the job, so I'd be using it regardless. I'd just like to know if there is any interest for the game, particularly if people know that it involves both a rules change, and a rules change that is rooted in d20.
I probably should have chosen a better title and approach to this thread.
Incidentally, would YOU play this game? And how much more information would you require before making that decision, assuming you've not yet made it?
Well, I'd start out with a default answer of no. I don't get to play enough as it is (been playing Pf, 3.5, and microlite20 -- why won't my 3.5 DM switch to Pf?!?) and I've been trying to get together a B/X game. If I had more time for gaming, I'd try something that I've been wanting to try for some time that's different, like Mouse Guard, Colonial Gothic, Trail of Cthulhu, or Kagematsu. So, in my case at least, you'd be fighting against having a lot more game desire than game time plus a high level of satisfaction with the games available. Great product can overcome the deck stacked against it, but not easily.
6. As a d20 varient, is there much appeal in this game following a PHB, DMG, MM format? Should layout remain similar to DnD, Pathfinder etc?
The main appeal of the PHB/DMG/MM format for me is that none of the individual books become too unwieldy. The PF Core Rulebook is a bit on the large side when it comes to ease of use around the table, but there are other rule books that are worse offenders. Some are almost impossible to use due to their sheer size (the Ptolus core book, for instance).
As long as you stay away from making huge books that are impossible to use effectively, it doesn't really matter if you make it 1, 2, 3, or any other number of core books.
I would disagree with Are. One of the complaints against the original release of Mongoose's Runequest system was the number of books that people had to buy in order to run the game. At 25 dollars apiece it got expensive, plus when I was travelling I needed five or six Runequest books to work on a Runequest campaign, while I could work on a D6 Space campaign with only one book.
The moral of the story is that the number of core books should probably be kept to two or three. Additional supplimentary books are good, but especially in a recession it is hard to ask people to buy a lot of books.
To answer the original question, yes, I would be interested in seeing a different variant, especially if it went in a different direction than Pathfinder did.
In my mind, Pathfinder evolved in a certain direction which is a fine direction to evolve towards, but makes it harder to run a low magic game because magic has become even more prevalent than it had been in 3.5. I would be interested in seeing a variant that goes the other way.
But then, I'm an RPG junkie who has a good paying job, a reasonable amount of job security, and enough RPG books that if I sold them all, I could buy a large screen high definition TV.
***This is, kind of, advertising. If I am in any way infringing upon forum rules or etiquette, please let me know!***
Wow. Thank you everyone for the replies and input.
I'm sorry I've been absent for a while. Life has been pretty hectic these last few months, but is back in order now. AND I've even managed to make some progress with the first version of these rules.
A large part of this project is focused on community. I'm not touting a revolutionary, or better than 'x' product. Rather a campaign setting that is different enough that a large enough number of players may become interested in and wish to play. An alternative rather than a competitor. I for one will continue to play Pathfinder alongside this game.
As things are looking there's be a few smallish rulebooks - a player's guide and a games masters guide, for a start -and then a series of campaign settings books, some campaign arcs, bestiaries and so on. The idea is that the two main books and a bestiary or two is all that is needed (most players, of course, only need the one book), with the rest of the content being entirely optional.
The main idea for this product was to produce a series of adventures, campaign settings and bestiaries focused primarily on flavour rather than rule, but the flavour has demanded so many rules changes that it is far more sensible to produce an entire rulebook (or two).
I didn't have any intention of producing additional rulebooks such as advanced player's guides and so forth. I have nothing at all against these, but between time constraints and a fear of bloat (again, not an attempt at snark - some are done incredibly well) these aren't likely.
For anyone interested, the rules changes, thus far, include:
-Changes to race, culture and background.
-Complete overhaul of classes, talents and level progression.
-Overhaul of magic system, simplified whilst still retaining the majority (if not all) of the current spell lists.
-Overhaul of combat system, weapons and armour.
-Overhaul of flavour and lore.
So, as you can see, a few differences. Enough to suggest that house-ruling would simply get silly. In fact, picking out individual house-rules would require a rulebook of its own. So I may as well integrate all of the changes into a new rule-book.
The basic task resolution mechanics remain the same, with a few differences and expansions added here and there. Again, nothing revolutionary. I'm just trying to move things into a different direction. In general, there is an emphasis on flavour directed mechanics, rather than a pure focus on mechanics.
Out of curiosity. Whilst there is a mix of feelings here, would there be much interest in considering a free alpha version of the rules?
Some lessons learned from watching others:
A) Unless it's d20/D&D 4e, rules don't sell RPGs. Settings do. Having a set of rules that requires not only playing something other than 'the game everyone knows' but TEACHING everyone something other than 'the game everyone knows' is going to be a non-starter if that can't be done FAST.
B) You are aiming for the 'mouse in the burrow' niche. Your game needs to have fast character creation, and it should let someone leap into character creation and into their first game in 15-30 minutes, for an adventure arc that can be run in 1-3 sessions.
C) Formatting and Presentation Matter. If you intend to sel this in stores, having a book that fits a 'standard RPG book size' will avoid having game stores say "Nah, it'll vanish on the shelf."
D) Make your cover stand out. The best way to do this is to print out a color copy of your cover, and make a pile of magazine clippings from Cosmo or Vogue or Men's fitness. Drop your cover in the pile, close your eyes, and stir it up, then look away for 30 seconds, then look down. Can you spot your cover in three seconds? If the answer is 'no', your book will vanish.
E) Small digest format books have a problem in stores: They're small enough that a kid who thinks nobody's looking can slip it into a coat pocket and walk out with it. The Munchkin box for card games was a hit with retailers because it was too big to be pocket-able.
F) It is easy to make combat gritty and lethal. It is difficult to make combat gritty, lethal and fun. Players want 'action movie' realism. (This still stops short of what a 7th level character in Pathfinder can routinely accomplish, but...)
Understand that your market of potential customers already have a favorite game, and it isn't yours. They will use your game as a change of pace game. It is highly unlikely that your game will be used for an ongoing campaign. It should be easy to get into, easy to run and something that people can, when that story is done, set the books down for 6 months, and pick it up again for another three session run without too much effort.
Games that hit this beautifully:
D6 (WEG)
Feng Shui
FATE
Do not print more than 200 copies of it at first. In this market, you can sell between 150 and 200 of damned near anything. You probably can't sell 400 of it, until you get a track record.
Do not release your first product until you have the second one ready to go to press. Ideally, don't release your first product until the next TWO go to press. Being able to follow up with a release every 3-4 months is critically important.
Do not be afraid to charge $20 for a skinny book.
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Some lessons learned from watching others:
A) Unless it's d20/D&D 4e, rules don't sell RPGs. Settings do. Having a set of rules that requires not only playing something other than 'the game everyone knows' but TEACHING everyone something other than 'the game everyone knows' is going to be a non-starter if that can't be done FAST.
B) You are aiming for the 'mouse in the burrow' niche. Your game needs to have fast character creation, and it should let someone leap into character creation and into their first game in 15-30 minutes, for an adventure arc that can be run in 1-3 sessions.
C) Formatting and Presentation Matter. If you intend to sel this in stores, having a book that fits a 'standard RPG book size' will avoid having game stores say "Nah, it'll vanish on the shelf."
D) Make your cover stand out. The best way to do this is to print out a color copy of your cover, and make a pile of magazine clippings from Cosmo or Vogue or Men's fitness. Drop your cover in the pile, close your eyes, and stir it up, then look away for 30 seconds, then look down. Can you spot your cover in three seconds? If the answer is 'no', your book will vanish.
E) Small digest format books have a problem in stores: They're small enough that a kid who thinks nobody's looking can slip it into a coat pocket and walk out with it. The Munchkin box for card games was a hit with retailers because it was too big to be pocket-able.
F) It is easy to make combat gritty and lethal. It is difficult to make combat gritty, lethal and fun. Players want 'action movie' realism. (This still stops short of what a 7th level character in Pathfinder can routinely accomplish, but...)
Understand that your market of potential customers already have a favorite game, and it isn't yours. They will use your game as a change of pace game. It is highly unlikely that your game will be used for an ongoing campaign. It should be easy to get into, easy to run and something that people can, when that story is done, set the books...
Nice.
Some lessons learned from watching others:
A) Unless it's d20/D&D 4e, rules don't sell RPGs. Settings do. Having a set of rules that requires not only playing something other than 'the game everyone knows' but TEACHING everyone something other than 'the game everyone knows' is going to be a non-starter if that can't be done FAST.
B) You are aiming for the 'mouse in the burrow' niche. Your game needs to have fast character creation, and it should let someone leap into character creation and into their first game in 15-30 minutes, for an adventure arc that can be run in 1-3 sessions.
C) Formatting and Presentation Matter. If you intend to sel this in stores, having a book that fits a 'standard RPG book size' will avoid having game stores say "Nah, it'll vanish on the shelf."
D) Make your cover stand out. The best way to do this is to print out a color copy of your cover, and make a pile of magazine clippings from Cosmo or Vogue or Men's fitness. Drop your cover in the pile, close your eyes, and stir it up, then look away for 30 seconds, then look down. Can you spot your cover in three seconds? If the answer is 'no', your book will vanish.
E) Small digest format books have a problem in stores: They're small enough that a kid who thinks nobody's looking can slip it into a coat pocket and walk out with it. The Munchkin box for card games was a hit with retailers because it was too big to be pocket-able.
F) It is easy to make combat gritty and lethal. It is difficult to make combat gritty, lethal and fun. Players want 'action movie' realism. (This still stops short of what a 7th level character in Pathfinder can routinely accomplish, but...)
Understand that your market of potential customers already have a favorite game, and it isn't yours. They will use your game as a change of pace game. It is highly unlikely that your game will be used for an ongoing campaign. It should be easy to get into, easy to run and something that people can, when that story is done, set the books...
AdAstra - Excellent post! Thank you.
It's actually from watching others (RPG.net, IndieRPGs and this site, amongst others) that keeps filling me with confidence that I'm doing this right. I keep reading suggestions, ideas and discussions from people and thinking 'hey, my game does THAT', or 'my product works like That', ;THAT's my goal". Which is why I'm still going on with it.
Having said, it is really great to get the feedback and very inspiring to see that I am working along the correct lines.
In response (in case it helps):
A) It's D20 based, so the familiarity should be there. There are, however, some major changes. The idea is primarily to produce a campaign setting, or a collection of campaign settings. Also, so far, the RPGers and non-RPGers I've shown the material I have so far to, seem to suggest its easy to understand and quick to follow. Which is quite surprising, because I think it's retained a fair amount of detail and depth.
B) I can make a character in under 30 minutes, most others, maybe 30 - 45. There are also, however, a series of pre-made characters included in an appendix. Character creation is pretty similar to D20 - a bit more in fact - but everything is based more on making choices, rather than understanding sub-rules and systems. Should be OK.
With the first book there will be some free 1-3 session arcs. After there will be more substantial campaign length arcs, based upon a setting region. The regions will be linked, but there will be no actual map. Due to the setting, most of these areas are reasonably isolated.
C) The first rule book is looking around 220 pages. It's relatively thick. It's likely to be soft back, perfect bound and will be crown quarto sized. Big and substantial enough to be seen on a shelf (and hold its own) small enough that it can be carried, read whilst travelling and thumbed through easily. Also, the format means that a two page spread fits pretty well on a widescreen monitor. Which is a nice bonus.
Other books will be of a similar size, with the page count obviously varying.
D) Cover test works. :)
E) Not quite small enough for that. I hope.
F) Yeah, I've noticed this. I think this works as a good blend. The whole feel of combat has changed with the rules which means it remains fun; rather than wondering why you can't do what you could do in DnD and so on. Combat is still exciting and enjoyable (?) but feels deadlier, which is what I was aiming for. It's not that you're more likely to be killed, but you will notice injuries and won't want to be hit. It's as strategic and tactical as D20, but in a different way.
I think of the characters in DnD/Pathfinder as heroic because they are incredibly powerful and can face and destroy great enemies.
I think of the characters in my game as heroic because they are not incredibly powerful, but they can encounter and survive (and often defeat) great enemies.
Yeah, I'm not expecting to take over any markets. A game that people who think like me (and there seems to be a few) will enjoy playing, maybe as a one-off, maybe as something longer term, is more what I had in mind. I'm hoping for something where you'll want to run the occasional campaign, alongside others. The campaign arcs will be based on different regions, and I am not expecting all of them to be universally popular. The idea is you can pick one you like, read the rules, enjoy the arc and if you don't fancy another one (because the region focus is not for you) then you'll use one of the other gaming systems that does it the way you like.
Anyway, that's enough from me. Thanks again for your post. It was incredibly helpful.