Ack >< I've recently had a bad experience with detecting evil. It was night time, we walking in a marshland (said the GM, though it's rather questionable since we were treading through water and there was NO vegetation, no trees, but there were rocks sitting around everywhere, anyway I digress), and we saw a group of people gathered in a circle, so my character being an aasimar paladin detects evil. No evil detected... On my next turn I have him move closer to check them out (taking two turns), turns out they were dummies. Anyway after that happens my turn is over and suddenly wererats are popping out sneak attacking us and shooting us with arrows.
So this brings up a lot of questions.
1) I know that my field of vision is 60 ft, but I thought that detect evil would at least tell me that there was evil. (I was told that I detected no evil) Am I wrong?
2) If they are within 60 ft (and this is my third round of concentration) wouldn't I know better where the auras are? (I was just given their general direction)
3) Does an enemy using stealth also hide their aura!? The GM said that stealth had some affect...
4) After I move do I have to mention that I'm still detecting evil?
This was a new GM, but I feel that my detect evil helped me not at all in this situation... against 6 hidden wererats (with bows) in an unfavorable terrain.
|
So this brings up a lot of questions.
Actually, only one question of consequence, which I, as a guy with a Wererat avatar, will try to clarify.
1) I know that my field of vision is 60 ft, but I thought that detect evil would at least tell me that there was evil. (I was told that I detected no evil) Am I wrong?
Yes, you are, at least in this case. Detect Evil will only detect an Evil aura if an Evil-aligned creature within the Cone-shaped Area of effect has 5 Hit Dice or more*. Wererats have 2 Hit Dice. Your DM was right, the spell would have done you no good in this case.
*This is different in the case of Evil Undead and Evil Outsiders, but Wererats are neither of those. Page 266 of the Core Rulebook has the chart at the top of the page.
Edit: Upon rereading your question, I think the DM probably lucked into the right answer. Stealth has absolutely no effect on anything related to Detect Evil. Also, he told you that you detected no evil (Question 1), but then gave you the general direction of auras (Question 2)? I'm not sure this fellow was really sure what to do. But, the more ineffective he made the spell, the better, because it should have been, like, completely ineffectual.
Thank you Jeremiziah for the quick response. I think I can rest well now that I understand that about the auras. Though I'd still like to know how this ability would work in relation to creatures that do exert auras.
|
As a common paladin player myself, detect evil can be a tricky ability to get used to. It first of all has a range of 60 ft. It does not matter if there is evil further away, you detect nothing if the evil is outside of this range. If Rovagug himself were 65 ft away from you, the spell would have no effect. (barring any strangeness like a projection of evil or something). This also applies for anything on the outside of the cone. If an evil creature were directly to your left and you detected evil in front of yourself, you wouldn't see the aura of the creature to your left.
To my knowledge, stealth does not have much of an effect on the aura but if you can only see the aura, the creature is still invisible as far as miss chance and effects that target creatures. You wouldn't be able to smite or cast a targeted spell, but you could at least attack the square and possibly hit them. Aura detection and physically seeing the creature are two different things. You can know where the aura is and still fail your perception check (though I usually allow a bonus to perception if you detect such an aura that's a house rule). This also applies to creatures that are actually invisible as per the spell. You can know what square(s) they occupy, but not actually see them.
You generally do need to continue to announce you are detecting evil as the spell is a concentration effect. As such, you need to spend a standard action each round as per pg. 183 in the core rules. Outside of combat this has little effect save that you can't walk as quickly (no running or double moving) or cast a spell or something while using detect evil. In combat, unless you are targeting a specific creature which paladins (and paladins only) can do as a move action, detect evil takes at least two rounds to detect the strongest evil, and three before you detect all evil auras.
I hope that clarifies detect evils abilities and limitations somewhat. I'm a bit long-winded but I hope it proved at least somewhat informative.
So this brings up a lot of questions.
Actually, only one question of consequence, which I, as a guy with a Wererat avatar, will try to clarify.
1) I know that my field of vision is 60 ft, but I thought that detect evil would at least tell me that there was evil. (I was told that I detected no evil) Am I wrong?Yes, you are, at least in this case. Detect Evil will only detect an Evil aura if an Evil-aligned creature within the Cone-shaped Area of effect has 5 Hit Dice or more*. Wererats have 2 Hit Dice. Your DM was right, the spell would have done you no good in this case.
*This is different in the case of Evil Undead and Evil Outsiders, but Wererats are neither of those. Page 266 of the Core Rulebook has the chart at the top of the page.
Edit: Upon rereading your question, I think the DM probably lucked into the right answer. Stealth has absolutely no effect on anything related to Detect Evil. Also, he told you that you detected no evil (Question 1), but then gave you the general direction of auras (Question 2)? I'm not sure this fellow was really sure what to do. But, the more ineffective he made the spell, the better, because it should have been, like, completely ineffectual.
Not true the way I read the spell. He would know that evil is present, but he would not know how strong the aura was or the location of the aura. The first round of concentration says this in the RAW. "The presence or absence of evil" not the aura location and strength.
Not true the way I read the spell. He would know that evil is present, but he would not know how strong the aura was or the location of the aura. The first round of concentration says this in the RAW. "The presence or absence of evil" not the aura location and strength.
So this brings up a lot of questions.
Actually, only one question of consequence, which I, as a guy with a Wererat avatar, will try to clarify.
1) I know that my field of vision is 60 ft, but I thought that detect evil would at least tell me that there was evil. (I was told that I detected no evil) Am I wrong?Yes, you are, at least in this case. Detect Evil will only detect an Evil aura if an Evil-aligned creature within the Cone-shaped Area of effect has 5 Hit Dice or more*. Wererats have 2 Hit Dice. Your DM was right, the spell would have done you no good in this case.
*This is different in the case of Evil Undead and Evil Outsiders, but Wererats are neither of those. Page 266 of the Core Rulebook has the chart at the top of the page.
Edit: Upon rereading your question, I think the DM probably lucked into the right answer. Stealth has absolutely no effect on anything related to Detect Evil. Also, he told you that you detected no evil (Question 1), but then gave you the general direction of auras (Question 2)? I'm not sure this fellow was really sure what to do. But, the more ineffective he made the spell, the better, because it should have been, like, completely ineffectual.
The entry for less than 5 HD of "Aligned creature (HD)" is "None" aka no evil aura detected. They aren't powerful enough to be detected.
It keeps the paladin from walking into town and detecting evil and beginning to kill all the evil commoners. Don't think some of them wouldn't do it.
Well, it sounds like your GM might be metagaming a little bit, but nothing scandalous.
For starters, I believe the insight about HD and auras above is correct.
In the event that the creatures DID have evil auras, you still have a cone area for the spell, which as a GM I would equate with the direction you are looking as a character. This means that in mapless descriptive play, yes, stealth does affect your ability to locate evil. A successful stealth check means the wererats approach from outside your field of vision, which means outside your cone area of detect evil.
It's a bit dodgy of the GM. He could simple have let you use your class ability effectively and start the battle with a slight advantage. However, I can also see his case — both that the wererats are not evil enough and that they could avoid detection by approaching your from behind. Especially if it was an ambush, with a distraction like dummies.
Actually, it seems like your GM is a clever jerk, which is the best kind. Were I you, I would happily resign myself to the experience. :)
After reading the posts here and rereading the rules of detect evil I understand how it works a lot better. I won't get on him about the detect evil because we were both misunderstanding how it worked exactly.
Though, I don't know if it was the best kind of experience. Our level 4 party consisting of a Sorcerer/Paladin, a Ranger, and a Monk were being sniped by 6 wererats from across difficult terrain (deep water). It was set up knowing that we wouldn't have a healer that session, only one of us had any ranged attack, and under the belief that none of us had silver weapons. (I had started off with one, but he kept forgetting) Our ranger had to keep reminding him that her ranger had Water as a favored terrain (other wise we never would have found them). Her ranger couldn't stealth in the dead of night because he was being observed in the dead of night by hidden rats. (though he had led us to believe that they were) They had really high AC, the ranger missed with an 18. We had to tread through the water taking hits and then being sneak attacked. Then I had to keep reminding the DM after every hit that my weapon was silver. It was more of annoyance that wasted a lot of the healing resources that I had the foresight to buy ahead of time.
If I didn't have the lucky dice rolls that I had along with the fact that I had a silver weapon, our party would have died right there. Anyway, sorry for the rant. :/
** spoiler omitted **
The entry for less than 5 HD of "Aligned creature (HD)" is "None" aka no evil aura detected. They aren't powerful enough to be detected.
It keeps the paladin from walking into town and detecting evil and beginning to kill all the evil commoners. Don't think some of them wouldn't do it.
Not really. Thats called murder and no paladin who follows their code of honor would just slay anything evil. They just wont bother to talk to them or do any business with them and they will keep a close on on everything that goes on around them, looking for an excuse to bring them to justice. Bringing something to justice means arresting them too, not just executing them. Really folks, the idea that paladins kill everything evil is a very bad misconception and an ill played stereotype.
Detect evil would let the paladin know that evil is present in the city. Since he/ she has no way of knowing the exact location and aura strength of the evil, then they can't justifiably start "hacking down" commoners. That, in and of itself, is an evil act so no paladin would do it without cause.
I feel the that OP should have at least known that something evil was present. Really, what harm could it have done? The paladin still would have to fight the encounter and would not have known what they were facing until it attacked. This is not game breaking or overpowered in any way. There are ways to magically get around detect evil, so I don't see why the player should not benefit from his class ability.
Not really. Thats called murder and no paladin who follows their code of honor would just slay anything evil. They just wont bother to talk to them or do any business with them and they will keep a close on on everything that goes on around them, looking for an excuse to bring them to justice. Bringing something to justice means arresting them too, not just executing them. Really folks, the idea that paladins kill everything evil is a very bad misconception and an ill played stereotype...** spoiler omitted **
The entry for less than 5 HD of "Aligned creature (HD)" is "None" aka no evil aura detected. They aren't powerful enough to be detected.
It keeps the paladin from walking into town and detecting evil and beginning to kill all the evil commoners. Don't think some of them wouldn't do it.
My own interpretation of the paladin's code is even more nuanced:
If a paladin sees that a person is evil but that person is mortal and not committed to serve an evil deity, it is the paladin's obligation to attempt to show the PC the virtues of good by the most effective means possible. If a person is evil and no crime has been committed, that is merely a chance for the paladin to spread light and truth to the darkest corners of the soul.
Clear exceptions exist. Undead, evil outsiders, and evil dragons are purely evil and considered beyond redemption.
Simply murdering an NPC of evil alignment when they had done no wrong and were not threatening to do so is still murder and against the code of honor.
Not really. Thats called murder and no paladin who follows their code of honor would just slay anything evil. They just wont bother to talk to them or do any business with them and they will keep a close on on everything that goes on around them, looking for an excuse to bring them to justice. Bringing something to justice means arresting them too, not just executing them. Really folks, the idea that paladins kill everything evil is a very bad misconception and an ill played stereotype...** spoiler omitted **
The entry for less than 5 HD of "Aligned creature (HD)" is "None" aka no evil aura detected. They aren't powerful enough to be detected.
It keeps the paladin from walking into town and detecting evil and beginning to kill all the evil commoners. Don't think some of them wouldn't do it.
My own interpretation of the paladin's code is even more nuanced:
If a paladin sees that a person is evil but that person is mortal and not committed to serve an evil deity, it is the paladin's obligation to attempt to show the PC the virtues of good by the most effective means possible. If a person is evil and no crime has been committed, that is merely a chance for the paladin to spread light and truth to the darkest corners of the soul.
Clear exceptions exist. Undead, evil outsiders, and evil dragons are purely evil and considered beyond redemption.
Simply murdering an NPC of evil alignment when they had done no wrong and were not threatening to do so is still murder and against the code of honor.
Agreed 100%. It gets a bit risky about the worshipping an evil deity though. In "Council of Thieves" you lived around Asmodesus's influence and religion day in and day out, and tieflings wandered the streets. Granted, the tieflings were mostly the lowest rung on the social scale, these creatures were still evil at heart. Howerver, killing a worshipper of Asmodeus openly just for who they worshiped would get you a whole lot of trouble. Is it against a paladin's code? Maybe, maybe not. If the worshipper was not committing an evil act such as murder, then the paladin does not have just cause for killing them. I always though that the paladin would do their best to convert worshipers of evil deities. After all, death should be a last resort and not a hair trigger type of punishment handed out by a holy warrior.
Yep. My group first experienced tieflings from Planescape, where they were not evil outsiders but could have any alignment IIRC, so we might take a different tack on that example, but for Golarion I agree for the most part.
You're right, worship of an evil deity is a tricky one. I guess I included that because I felt that slashing down evil cultists should be legit for a paladin, but upon further reflection I suppose the cultists must at least be conspiring to do an evil act first. Otherwise their just citizens with beliefs, right?
Ironically, the ranger was a tiefling (true neutral).
And yes, my Paladin understands that being evil is not against the law; hacking people up in the streets is rather chaotic, and I would expect them to lose their powers for causing such a ruckus. I really do hate the over stereotyped and disjunctional perception of the Paladin as some OCD, impatient, arbiter. The OCD kinda counteracts the Lawfulness.
As for detect evil. In my defense, the first round says the presence of evil and says nothing about auras until the second round of concentration. I'm still peeved that even though it may have been the right ruling, it was for the wrong reasons :/. Oh well...
Also, I have another question ><; If you do decide to focus on something, you can still tell if it's evil right? Even if it's not giving off an aura?
Also, I have another question ><; If you do decide to focus on something, you can still tell if it's evil right? Even if it's not giving off an aura?
Some say yes, some say no. I personally think the wording implies that you can tell they are evil even if they have no aura.
Also, I have another question ><; If you do decide to focus on something, you can still tell if it's evil right? Even if it's not giving off an aura?Some say yes, some say no. I personally think the wording implies that you can tell they are evil even if they have no aura.
Again, its tricky. You would know that evil is present. If there is only one creature within your sight and 60' cone of detect evil, then you can logically presume that the creature is evil. But there is no guarantee. There could be an invisible foe within that range that is giving off the evil vibe, and not the creature that you are actually looking at. I would say that you don't know for certain that it is evil. That's where the auras come into play. When you can read the aura, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the creature is evil and how evil it is. Until then, you know that evil exists within him, but it is not strong enough for you to pinpoint him.
The entry for less than 5 HD of "Aligned creature (HD)" is "None" aka no evil aura detected. They aren't powerful enough to be detected.It keeps the paladin from walking into town and detecting evil and beginning to kill all the evil commoners. Don't think some of them wouldn't do it.
Not really. Thats called murder and no paladin who follows their code of honor would just slay anything evil. They just wont bother to talk to them or do any business with them and they will keep a close on on everything that goes on around them, looking for an excuse to bring them to justice. Bringing something to justice means arresting them too, not just executing them. Really folks, the idea that paladins kill everything evil is a very bad misconception and an ill played stereotype.Detect evil would let the paladin know that evil is present in the city. Since he/ she has no way of knowing the exact location and aura strength of the evil, then they can't justifiably start "hacking down" commoners. That, in and of itself, is an evil act so no paladin would do it without cause.
And yes, my Paladin understands that being evil is not against the law; hacking people up in the streets is rather chaotic, and I would expect them to lose their powers for causing such a ruckus. I really do hate the over stereotyped and disjunctional perception of the Paladin as some OCD, impatient, arbiter. The OCD kinda counteracts the Lawfulness.
There is no right or wrong way to play "YOUR" paladin what more reason than "My deity has granted me the ability to unmask all the evil that threatens the goodly townsfolk do you need.
Paladins do not have a code of Honor they have a code of conduct
alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies
if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect
legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in
need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic
ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Not dealing with the evil you find is like: I won't do anything about that bomb over there because it hasn't gone off yet. Paladins are given the means to be proactive and are expected to act as such. Saying "Sorry but until the evil cult actually begins sacrificing people I can't do anything, that would be against the law. Is a piss poor cop out.
In the paladin book evil is not to be accepted, allowed, capitulated to, or ignored. Each paladin has to figure out how "within the local laws" he can act but act he must.
Paladins gain the ability to "Smite Evil" not "Smite Evildoers", or "Smite those I actually saw do evil". If you are evil it is his duty to bring about the end of your evil, by redemption, or your death.
Lastly look at detect chaos or detect good, etc.
They say "This spell functions like detect evil, except that it detects the auras of "XXXXX" creatures." No aura, nothing detected.
** spoiler omitted **
The entry for less than 5 HD of "Aligned creature (HD)" is "None" aka no evil aura detected. They aren't powerful enough to be detected.
It keeps the paladin from walking into town and detecting evil and beginning to kill all the evil commoners. Don't think some of them wouldn't do it.
Not really. Thats called murder and no paladin who follows their code of honor would just slay anything evil. They just wont bother to talk to them or do any business with them and they will keep a close on on everything that goes on around them, looking for an excuse to bring them to justice. Bringing something to justice means arresting them too, not just executing them. Really folks, the idea that paladins kill everything evil is a very bad misconception and an ill played stereotype.
Detect evil would let the paladin know that evil is present in the city. Since he/ she has no way of knowing the exact location and aura strength of the evil, then they can't justifiably start "hacking down" commoners. That, in and of itself, is an evil act so no paladin would do it without cause.
You're talking about what properly played Paladins should do when the ability was likely specifically changed because of the way most (what many would call) "poor players" tended to play Paladins, which was indeed "I go into a town and wantonly start killing everyone who registers as evil... you know, because they're evil". I've seen it happen. I think everyone has. Personally, I can't think of any other reason for Detect Evil to have been changed.
Not dealing with the evil you find is like: I won't do anything about that bomb over there because it hasn't gone off yet. Paladins are given the means to be proactive and are expected to act as such. Saying "Sorry but until the evil cult actually begins sacrificing people I can't do anything, that would be against the law. Is a piss poor cop out.
In the paladin book evil is not to be accepted, allowed, capitulated to, or ignored. Each paladin has to figure out how "within the local laws" he can act but act he must.
I guess it really depends on how your DM and your party define evil as. Our group had come to a consensus that evil is defined as those willing to screw others over in order to promote their own selfish desires. So let's say that the sheriff of the town likes to beat people up and throw them into jail. Even though he has evil reasons for doing it, he's actually promoting good. In just the same way, 'good' characters can also be against each other and promote evil acts (albeit usually unknowingly).
Sure the sheriff is promoting good on the streets, I wouldn't want to associate with a sociopath who enjoys the screams of people suffering, even if they are the sounds of suffering criminals.
But to each his or her own beliefs.
It keeps the paladin from walking into town and detecting evil and beginning to kill all the evil commoners. Don't think some of them wouldn't do it.
Not dealing with the evil you find is like: I won't do anything about that bomb over there because it hasn't gone off yet. Paladins are given the means to be proactive and are expected to act as such. Saying "Sorry but until the evil cult actually begins sacrificing people I can't do anything, that would be against the law. Is a piss poor cop out.
In the paladin book evil is not to be accepted, allowed, capitulated to, or ignored. Each paladin has to figure out how "within the local laws" he can act but act he must.
Equivocating not doing "anything about that bomb over there because it hasn't gone off yet" and not going on a mass-murdering killing spree every time you walk into town is a straw-man if I ever saw one.
(Ahem)
While I can see why Paizo made this change, "Just how evil is Bob, the first level commoner who cheats on his taxes, anyway?" I wish they would allow special for exceptions.
Joe the 4th level Fighter who slaughters families and wears their skins does not ping evil while Bob, the now level 5 Commoner who has moved up to stealing candy from children does. Not to mention Burt, the LN Cleric of the God of Baby Sacrifice and Nachos, he pings Majorly Evil despite being a swell guy who helps old ladies cross the street.
There's also the side effect that they took a whole group of level 1 spells and made the nigh useless until 5th level and they nerfed a Paladin's ability to effectively use one of her main class features for 5 levels to boot.
I get the intent, just not well executed IMO.
The entry for less than 5 HD of "Aligned creature (HD)" is "None" aka no evil aura detected. They aren't powerful enough to be detected.It keeps the paladin from walking into town and detecting evil and beginning to kill all the evil commoners. Don't think some of them wouldn't do it.
Not really. Thats called murder and no paladin who follows their code of honor would just slay anything evil. They just wont bother to talk to them or do any business with them and they will keep a close on on everything that goes on around them, looking for an excuse to bring them to justice. Bringing something to justice means arresting them too, not just executing them. Really folks, the idea that paladins kill everything evil is a very bad misconception and an ill played stereotype.Detect evil would let the paladin know that evil is present in the city. Since he/ she has no way of knowing the exact location and aura strength of the evil, then they can't justifiably start "hacking down" commoners. That, in and of itself, is an evil act so no paladin would do it without cause.
And yes, my Paladin understands that being evil is not against the law; hacking people up in the streets is rather chaotic, and I would expect them to lose their powers for causing such a ruckus. I really do hate the over stereotyped and disjunctional perception of the Paladin as some OCD, impatient, arbiter. The OCD kinda counteracts the Lawfulness.There is no right or wrong way to play "YOUR" paladin what more reason than "My deity has granted me the ability to unmask all the evil that threatens the goodly townsfolk do you need.
Paladins do not have a code of Honor they have a code of conduct
** spoiler omitted **...
Your straw man argument is weak. really, your examples are one extreme. I basically refuted your excuse of a paladin walking into a town and hacking down evil commoners.
Code of Honor and Conduct.... right, it still dictates a moral obligation to follow the law and do what is right. Mass killing civilians who might have evil tendencies such as lying, cheating and stealing is far more evil of an act.
Regardless, detect evil still works. Are you telling me that a level one spell has no effect or use until you reach at least level three? Seriously, if the DM is pitting a 5HD evil foe against a party of level one or two adventurers then that is very dangerous and highly unlikely that they will survive. You are saying that it does not work at all on 5HD or less? BS. Then why even make the spell a first level spell if it won't ever work? Furthermore, I think YOU need to reread that chart. A level one paladin or cleric (perhaps an evil cleric?) DOES radiate their aura and can be located with any detect spell (good, or evil) at level ONE. So that means that it DOES work at level one. It will function for less than 5HD. Argument refuted.
Look at the spell and read what it says about concentrating for one round: "1st Presence or absence of evil." It says nothing about you requiring it to have a HD of five or more to know it is within your cone. It merely says that if it is above 5HD, you know it. You know that it is Faint in power. It does not say anywhere in the spell that Detect Evil does not function for creatures 5HD or lower.
You want a class that takes matters into their own hands and metes out their own form of justice in the name of a god? See the Inquisitor. Paladins do not behave that way. At least well played ones do not. What they do in your games might be a different story.
Let me start this out by saying "I am playing devil's advocate". However some of this discussion is based on morality which is dangerous to discuss on a board. Evil and good are not subjective in Pathfinder just as in D&D.
This is not a real world issue, in "our world" good and evil are defined by God. What God says is evil is evil and what God says is good is good. Without good and evil being defined by a higher power, we are just biological organisms fighting to survive and reproduce there is no other purpose to life.
Your straw man argument is weak. really, your examples are one extreme. I basically refuted your excuse of a paladin walking into a town and hacking down evil commoners.
You haven't refuted anything.
Code of Honor and Conduct.... right, it still dictates a moral obligation to follow the law and do what is right. Mass killing civilians who might have evil tendencies such as lying, cheating and stealing is far more evil of an act.
Who defines what is right to your paladins. Paladins only follow just laws. Blindly following the law can be just as "evil" as fighting the law.
Slavery may be legal but that does not make it just.
Regardless, detect evil still works. Are you telling me that a level one spell has no effect or use until you reach at least level three? Seriously, if the DM is pitting a 5HD evil foe against a party of level one or two adventurers then that is very dangerous and highly unlikely that they will survive. You are saying that it does not work at all on 5HD or less? BS. Then why even make the spell a first level spell if it won't ever work? Furthermore, I think YOU need to reread that chart. A level one paladin or cleric (perhaps an evil cleric?) DOES radiate their aura and can be located with any detect spell (good, or evil) at level ONE. So that means that it DOES work at level one. It will function for less than 5HD. Argument refuted.
Here is what I Said:
The entry for less than 5 HD of "Aligned creature (HD)" is "None" aka no evil aura detected. They aren't powerful enough to be detected.
As you can clearly see I am talking about 1 line of the chart my entire argument applies only to that line. I never said the spell wouldn't detect anything until 5th level it just won't detect anything on that line of the chart until the creature has 5 levels or HD.
Look at the spell and read what it says about concentrating for one round: "1st Presence or absence of evil." It says nothing about you requiring it to have a HD of five or more to know it is within your cone. It merely says that if it is above 5HD, you know it. You know that it is Faint in power. It does not say anywhere in the spell that Detect Evil does not function for creatures 5HD or lower.
I don't even know why I am responding to this.
What part of None are you unclear on?
You want a class that takes matters into their own hands and metes out their own form of justice in the name of a god? See the Inquisitor. Paladins do not behave that way. At least well played ones do not. What they do in your games might be a different story.
We aren't talking about the inquisitor we are talking about paladins.
Don't you think this this is a bit pretentious [Paladins do not behave that way. At least well played ones do not.] Who are you to decide how a paladin should be played, that is done by the player, not you.[What they do in your games might be a different story.]
So what do paladins do in your game since they apparently aren't the bane of evil.
Drat I just realized I got sucked into non rules related responses.
Evil and good are not subjective in Pathfinder just as in D&D
Actually it is... Except it's not subjective to your own personal beliefs, but the DMs. The DM rules whether or not what you do is good or evil, lawful or chaotic, who's good, who's evil, etc. See Here for any qualms about alignment.
Anyway,
Stealth alone would be meaningless as suggested, but total cover would hide the creature you are trying to detect, and it's aura as well. It could be an evil god, but as long as its hiding behind something that gives it complete cover, you could be 10 ft away and get no information from detect evil.
Each round, you can turn to detect evil in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
What I'm gathering is as long as it's penetrating the material they don't actually count as cover for them, and I'm pretty sure those wererats weren't hiding beneath lead shields.
Also...
Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them. Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell.
Do they count as evil aligned and have an evil aura according to the chart? Or can I just sense the presence of their evil even if I can't see their evil aura?
Let me start this out by saying "I am playing devil's advocate". However some of this discussion is based on morality which is dangerous to discuss on a board. Evil and good are not subjective in Pathfinder just as in D&D.
This is not a real world issue, in "our world" good and evil are defined by God. What God says is evil is evil and what God says is good is good. Without good and evil being defined by a higher power, we are just biological organisms fighting to survive and reproduce there is no other purpose to life.Bull. We also have laws written by us mere mortals that tell us what is lawful and unlawful in our societies when it comes to Pathfinder. Coincidentally, it IS that way in real life as well. Morality is knowing what is wrong and right without having to have it spelled out for you in black and white on a document. Yes, you may know that slavery is bad, but if the society that you are residing in accepts it and you try to kill a slave owner for owning slaves then you are subject to punishment by the local law. A paladin is NEVER above the law. Show me in the RAW where it even indicates that and I'll concede the point. If anything, they have to balance themselves on a very fine line and not only obey the law but go above and beyond to obey their code as well, not instead of.
Your straw man argument is weak. really, your examples are one extreme. I basically refuted your excuse of a paladin walking into a town and hacking down evil commoners.
You haven't refuted anything.
I most certainly have. Your example of a paladin walking into a town and justifiably slaying "evil" commoners was weak and proven to be very un-paladin like. Like I said, refuted. No DM that is good at what they do would allow a paladin to do that and keep their powers.
Code of Honor and Conduct.... right, it still dictates a moral obligation to follow the law and do what is right. Mass killing civilians who might have evil tendencies such as lying, cheating and stealing is far more evil of an act.
Who defines what is right to your paladins. Paladins only follow just laws. Blindly following the law can be just as "evil" as fighting the law.
Slavery may be legal but that does not make it just.You are ignoring my comment. Mass killing innocent civilians is wrong no matter how you slice it. Just because you may have an evil aura does not mean that you are to be put to death by the sword. Like I said, stealing, cheating and lying are evil in nature but not punishable by death.
The paladins code should be agreed upon before the game by the DM and the player of that character. This gives the player a good code to work by and one that the DM can ensure that he/she is playing by instead of the paladin trying to justify their actions every week at the table when they do something very questionable in nature. Paladins do not have card blanche to kill evil at will. Again, it is not written in the class description. If it were, then why do they write on page 64 that paladins can adventure with evil associates if it helps them to defeat a greater evil? If the paladins in your world can not even allow them to breathe, then this paragraph makes no sense at all.
So basically you are saying that in no way can you even tell that evil is present on an aligned creature unless they are 6HD or more. No. That statement is incorrect. Again, you are ignoring the first round of concentration of the spell. Tell me where it says in that the spell does not function for aligned creatures of 5HD or less in this fashion. You just know that the strength is so weak that it isn't even showing up on your "spidey" sense and isn't strong enough to ping on your radar. You know it is present but can not pin point it.
And you really need to learn some reading comprehension. The other detect spells work JUST LIKE DETECT EVIL except that the auras they detect are based on the name of the spell. So detect good will tell you that good is present but you can not pin point it on a 5HD or less aligned creature. Really, read the other posts on this thread. The spell is messed up as written and lacks some common sense. You're telling me that a 3HD fighter who is murdering small children in a big city is not going to radiate evil but a 6HD selfish, lying drunk who cheated on his taxes will? Sorry, that makes no sense whatsoever. Morality aside, some things just take common sense to figure out and that is the glory of having a good DM.
Also...
Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them. Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell.Do they count as evil aligned and have an evil aura according to the chart? Or can I just sense the presence of their evil even if I can't see their evil aura?
No, apparently the aura is too weak if they are 5HD or less. Yes, you would know that evil is present if they are in your cone of effect when you use detect evil, but you can not pin point them. If they are 5HD or more, then sure. Honestly, the chart really needs to be reworked so that creatures with evil intent can be picked up on by concentrating on them. Like I said, level 3 fighter who is murdering folks can't be pin pointed on your detect spell..... that just screams wrong to me.
Keeping a paladin from slaughtering the evil peasants is easy. A paladin has to be LAWFUL good. While the morality of killing people for being evil is questionable and open to interpretation, the idea that it is ILLEGAL for a private citizen to start killing peasants based on their own say so is not: most towns/countries villiages are going to have laws against that sort of thing. Even though it might be a good thing to do its still illegal and thus against the paladins code.
It's interesting. The chart in the core rulebook says that 5 or lower HD evil aligned non-undead or outsiders have no evil aura, but then it says that 5-10 HD are "faint". So which is it? Are 5 HD evil folks devoid of an evil aura or are they considered "faint"?
I suspect it's 4 or lower with no evil aura, but it doesn't hurt to make sure.
Keeping a paladin from slaughtering the evil peasants is easy. A paladin has to be LAWFUL good. While the morality of killing people for being evil is questionable and open to interpretation, the idea that it is ILLEGAL for a private citizen to start killing peasants based on their own say so is not: most towns/countries villiages are going to have laws against that sort of thing. Even though it might be a good thing to do its still illegal and thus against the paladins code.
Hmmm, that does raise some interesting moral dillemas, like what if the Paladin is in a kingdom rules by an evil monarchy and he wants to free some slaves? Doing so would be illegal... would that be against the Paladin's code?
It's interesting. The chart in the core rulebook says that 5 or lower HD evil aligned non-undead or outsiders have no evil aura, but then it says that 5-10 HD are "faint". So which is it? Are 5 HD evil folks devoid of an evil aura or are they considered "faint"?
I suspect it's 4 or lower with no evil aura, but it doesn't hurt to make sure.
Keeping a paladin from slaughtering the evil peasants is easy. A paladin has to be LAWFUL good. While the morality of killing people for being evil is questionable and open to interpretation, the idea that it is ILLEGAL for a private citizen to start killing peasants based on their own say so is not: most towns/countries villiages are going to have laws against that sort of thing. Even though it might be a good thing to do its still illegal and thus against the paladins code.Hmmm, that does raise some interesting moral dillemas, like what if the Paladin is in a kingdom rules by an evil monarchy and he wants to free some slaves? Doing so would be illegal... would that be against the Paladin's code?
Even better, I had a paladin in the "Council of Thieves" campaign that we just wrapped up last week. Talk about moral dilemmas, LOL. Lets see, a city that openly worships Asmodeus, tieflings that wander about the city freely, corrupted nobles that put on shows consisting of actual death on stage and is located in a kingdom that has a devil dealing queen. Talk about making a paladins head spin!
Not really. Thats called murder and no paladin who follows their code of honor would just slay anything evil.** spoiler omitted **
The entry for less than 5 HD of "Aligned creature (HD)" is "None" aka no evil aura detected. They aren't powerful enough to be detected.
It keeps the paladin from walking into town and detecting evil and beginning to kill all the evil commoners. Don't think some of them wouldn't do it.
Well, paladins do what their players want them to do. And some players are still stuck in the last millennium (or the one before that) and think that paladins have the right to attack everything that is evil.
In one of our games, we recently met a priestess of Zon-Kuthon, lawful evil god of pain and torture. The Paladin refused to have anything to do with her (which is his right), but the player stated that if the city wasn't in the midst of martial law and general chaos, he'd have had her arrested.
My character (a LN watch priest) told him that he'd have had no chance. Being evil, while offending his sensibilities, is not a crime.)
The guy plays the paladin "old school". I.e. stick up his rear and "correct" to the point where he annoys the less lawfully-inclined (and sometimes the absolutely lawful) characters in the group.
I personally have given up rolling my eyes at that cliché.
Though, I don't know if it was the best kind of experience. Our level 4 party consisting of a Sorcerer/Paladin, a Ranger, and a Monk were being sniped by 6 wererats from across difficult terrain (deep water). It was set up knowing that we wouldn't have a healer that session, only one of us had any ranged attack, and under the belief that none of us had silver weapons. (I had started off with one, but he kept forgetting) Our ranger had to keep reminding him that her ranger had Water as a favored terrain (other wise we never would have found them). Her ranger couldn't stealth in the dead of night because he was being observed in the dead of night by hidden rats. (though he had led us to believe that they were) They had really high AC, the ranger missed with an 18. We had to tread through the water taking hits and then being sneak attacked. Then I had to keep reminding the DM after every hit that my weapon was silver. It was more of annoyance that wasted a lot of the healing resources that I had the foresight to buy ahead of time.
Some things that might be helpful if you encounter anything like this again: If you are in water, "at least chest deep", you have improved cover (+8 AC, +4 on Reflex saves) vs creatures on land or on rocks. So most likely the were rats would have been missing a lot of those shots. Also, all the arrow attacks should have been at a -2 for having to pass though water (its actually -2 per 5 feet of water).
Also, for detecting evil remember: "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it."
|
I don't want to get mired in the paladin code discussion, but thought I'd bring up something germaine to the original question. Here's the Paladin's Detect Evil ability:
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as
the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on
a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine
if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having
studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual
or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other
object or individual within range.
So there are several differences between the spell and the paladin's ability. Most importantly, you have to focus on a single subject. So whether stealth matters or not is irrelavent. In this case you would have to focus on one of the dummies, and you would get no information about anything else.
Talon, It's a move action to focus on something. I never focused on anything therefore it works like the spell... Focusing is optional " a paladin can, ..."
I have a good idea how this spell works now.
Anyway thankies for the tip Garreth.
I don't want to get mired in the paladin code discussion, but thought I'd bring up something germaine to the original question. Here's the Paladin's Detect Evil ability:
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as
the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on
a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine
if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having
studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual
or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other
object or individual within range.So there are several differences between the spell and the paladin's ability. Most importantly, you have to focus on a single subject. So whether stealth matters or not is irrelavent. In this case you would have to focus on one of the dummies, and you would get no information about anything else.
So, what you're saying is that a Paladin cannot Detect Evil as the spell. The Paladin Detects Evil in an entirely different way than the spell. Why, then, does the RAW lie and state that a Paladin can Detect Evil as the spell, go on to describe how a Paladin actually Detects Evil, then finish up by stating that while focusing on one individual a Paladin doesn't Detect Evil in anything else? A Paladin can never Detect Evil in more than one subject at a time. Why restate exactly what they just said in a more confusing way?
In your interpretation, only one in three sentences make sense. The way it actually works, all three sentences make sense.
I am really not trying to belittle your post, or be a jerk. I am trying to show that I don't believe that the can in that sentence is supposed to suggest one use or another, but to limit the old paladin bit of a constant invis detector for evil.If it just stated "The paladin can detect evil, as the spell." and that was it, I would believe differently, but nothing else spelled out in that description for the paladin suggests anything more detect evil could do differently than the spell description states, but instead only limits what the spell could normally do.
My interpretation is that the paladin can use detect evil just as the spell says, but has another way of utilizing it as well.
Regardless, the constant invisibility detector through detect evil is not really that effective. You do realize that even though you know the location of the aura that you are still subject to a 50% miss chance and you are denied your dex to AC from that invisible source right? It's not too much different than the Dragon Disciples ability to use blind sense. Granted, the DD is getting it at a much higher level, it is not overpowered or annoying in any way. Clever DMs can work around these abilities. Then again, Good DMs allow players to use these abilities provided they are smart enough to use them in creative ways.
Not only that, but you have to keep concentrating. Which by the way, you can't do once you attack. :/ Then you have to concentrate all over again...
Yeah Detect Evil is a tricky spell.
It takes a standard action to cast, you detect if there is evil present within your cone of sight from which you can use a move action to focus on a single entity (Which gives you the strength of its aura, and its aura alone).
In the next round, if you want to continue detecting you must use another standard action to maintain your concentrate to keep detecting evil, you can now count how many evil auras there are within your cone. You also find out the strength of the strongest evil (and be stunned [if you're good, which if you're a paladin you are] if it is an exceptionally evil aura above your level).
By the third round you can actually see the position of where the evil auras are. If they're not in your sight you can tell the general direction (I'm guessing this lets you tell if there is evil to the left, right of where you're looking, or behind you.)
Though this seems like a powerful searching tool, it means you can't double move, attack, or do anything else that would use your standard action. Otherwise it breaks your concentration, being attacked or thrown around violently can also break your concentration. So this isn't as useful once battle starts.
Though I've wondered, considering the part where it says that this spell can penetrate most materials, would it be feasible to use this while in obscuring mist? Can you see the auras in the darkness even if you can't see anything else? And say you had some arrows of guidance, this spell would be extremely useful for the surprise round, no?
re: Obscuring Mist.
You'd know the strength and direction of the aura, but not the location.
|
|
...If it just stated "The paladin can detect evil, as the spell." and that was it, I would believe differently, but nothing else spelled out in that description for the paladin suggests anything more detect evil could do differently than the spell description states, but instead only limits what the spell could normally do.
This was my interpretation as well, with the intention (as you mention) of toning down the power of a paladin's Detect Evil a bit.
However, a strict reading of the rules (i.e. RAW) is against my interpretation. I suppose I was inserting a "with the following differences" after "The paladin can detect evil, as the spell". That phrase clearly isn't in the book, so I stand corrected, again from a RAW perspective. I believe I will continue running it in my game the way I have been, however. I like the difference. Carry on with your conversation as before.