this's my first post here so please be kind. I specifically registered for this question, as i have not found a talk about this yet.
With the APG out, in our current campaign we are allowed to "reconstruct"(or replace) our characters with the new options available.
Now, my character up to now was a draconic bloodline sorceress(Level 7) mostly focused on blasting with fire spells, planning to eventually load up with a "improved invisibility/dragon form/transformation"-combo(statwise, that could get pretty nasty with the build :P). That being said, up to now she mainly functioned as a blaster, it's not a pure powergaming-group, and despite "controller" being superior, fluffwise and funwise, i went with blaster.
When i looked over the new options, the flame oracle kind of caught my eye.
In a direct comparison:
Hit die: D8 vs D6(oracle wins by an average of 1 HP per level extra)
Skill ranks: 4+int vs 2+int(oracle wins by 2/level, which is huge, because i like having many skills for fluff-reasons...(e.g. current character has high int to have skills left for perform/dance which she got to use ONCE at a ball yet))
Base Attack: Medium progression(oracle) vs slow progression(sorcerer)...oracle wins on touch spells-
Saves: All the same, stalemate.
Spells per day/Known: Same number of spells known/castable/bonus spells, + all cure spells for oracle(so oracle wins here, too). And it gets bonus spells a level early.
Spell failure: Oracle can wear a mithral full plate plus heavy shield without spell failure...so wins.
Curse versus Bloodline Arcana: i guess that'll depend on preference.
Revelations versus bloodline powers: grow claws(with a low HP/Bab) or get an equivalent of 4 feats(cinder dance: fleet*2 now, nimble moves, acrobatic steps later)...hm...difficult decision...i'll go with revelations. The fire resistance from molten skin goes higher, faster than the one from bloodline, firebreath and the like are stronger for sorcerer, but quite situational...the capstone is better imho for sorc, but i don't know if we ever get that far.
If going with a oracle, i'd think the lame-curse+cinder dance would do nicely...exactly the same speed, and up to level 15, over time, you'll learn to ignore up to 20 feet of difficult terrain, are immune to fatigue/exhaustion and are never slowed down by encumbrance/armor...
All in all, the only thing that seems to be going for the sorcerer here is the spell list, which, admittedly, is tempting.
But i am quite unsure if that spell list truly compensates for more skill ranks+HP, armored casting, the ability to cure if needed(also big because our only party healer right now is a paladin), subjectively better "bloodline boni" while still allowing a reasonable "blasting" build(Fireball lower level, later maybe Harm or Implosion?).
(+plus form of flame lasts 1 hour/level, pretty much should last for a daily dungeon crawl, and gives, in medium form, +4 dex(+2 ac/reflex save), +3 natural armor(almost same as bloodline) and, in later incarnations, scales well with immunity to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks and giving DR 5/-...for 1 hour per level...
Basically the build is not supposed to be a super-controller, anyway(for which sorcerer list would be better). But i am quite unsure.
The idea of a armored, skillful flame-entity buffing allies and blasting enemies is enticing to me(not planning on using weapons at all), but at the same time i feel like i'm missing something here...(except for some glorious combos like pit/iron wall)
if someone would enlighten me as to wether i would be well-adviced to switch or point out if i indeed missed something, i'd be very thankful. It just seems sorcerer is so much weaker in everything compared to the oracle except for the (admittedly much better) spell list...
All in all, the only thing that seems to be going for the sorcerer here is the spell list, which, admittedly, is tempting.
This.
The main advantage the sorcerer has is arcane vs divine spells. With your bonus spells (fireball etc) you'll still have some blasting utility. Except that a lot of creatures have fire resistance/immunity:see next point.
If you can handle coming up against creatures with fire resistance/immunity and if you really want to try the Oracle out (who doesn't?) then go for it.
But if you'd be frustrated by that scenario, then maybe not. Depending on your DM/the campaign it could be fairly common.
All in all, the only thing that seems to be going for the sorcerer here is the spell list, which, admittedly, is tempting.
This.
The main advantage the sorcerer has is arcane vs divine spells. With your bonus spells (fireball etc) you'll still have some blasting utility. Except that a lot of creatures have fire resistance/immunity:see next point.
If you can handle coming up against creatures with fire resistance/immunity and if you really want to try the Oracle out (who doesn't?) then go for it.
But if you'd be frustrated by that scenario, then maybe not. Depending on your DM/the campaign it could be fairly common.
hard call.
guess i should elaborate on that point:
Fluffwise, my sorceress used fire spells for blasting almost exclusively. She has a profound dislike of "cold", be that spells, environments, or other stuff, and didn't care much for electricity spells.
When we came up against, for example, hell hounds, she was confined to hasting the party and trying her best with grease and magic missile...you catch my drift.
Actually, i thought that the oracle-variant could take the inflict-spells for these instances, using them with the reach-metamagic-feat.
When i referred to the superior spell list, i was less talking about the blasting versatility as she is mainly fire focused, either way, but more about the additional utility stuff...(haste, improved invisibility, fly, dimension door, (greater) heroism...) and a little control stuff(wall of force, black tentacles, waves of exhaustion/ray of exhaustion).
+haste/improved invisibility/fly are all incredibly powerful options for the level of the spell, and tend to rather...dominate certain encounters on a regular basis. Possibly would make for a more interesting game if they are more...limited in their availability.
Those things, i would miss...dearly so...but that is the dilemna, everything else seems superior...which is why i'm hoping to see other peoples opinions on the comparison and help me make up my own mind -_-
Those things, i would miss...dearly so...but that is the dilemna, everything else seems superior...which is why i'm hoping to see other peoples opinions...
You have basically two options:
Either get more abilities as a warrior, being able to attack with weapons, wear armour, withstand more injury....
Or stay a better spellcaster, with a spell list much better suited for adversely affect others (whole-sale destruction of enemy groups, force conditions on enemies that really ruin their day, and get a lot of great protection spells).
What do you see yourself doing with the character more often? Wade into combat, probably buffed to the ear tips with magic power, or unleash megathaums worth of magic power directly on your enemies?
That's the big question. If you answer that, you answer what class you should go with. Because nothing else really matters - if you don't need to be a warrior, the better BAB and other combat stuff doesn't help you that much, and if you don't want that much magic, the better spell list doesn't really matter.
What sounds more like the scenario you want your character enmeshed in?
Having their toe in the same (Domain) pool that multiple dieties do, thus likely to draw the attentions, good or bad, or these dieties?
Or being linked to a lineage of dragons, which likewise could mean good or bad things (with gold dragons, and with dragons and other beings/organizations that hate {gold} dragons and those associated with them).
That probably depends on the game world you`re playing in as well...
Mechanically, you could use the Unearthed Arcane Battle Sorceror Variant, for Medium BAB, d8 HP, and no ASF in Light Armor which somewhat negates that difference between the classes. If you are Human, you would probably do well by the Extra Spell Known Favored Class Option, not EVERY level but at least every other level after you can get 3rd level spells with it.
Whatever your xchoice, don't let the capstone ability sway you. It's an ability you get maybe halfway through your last adventure with that character, so you might as well not even consider it.
Just based on the fact that your primary healer is a Paladin, I;d say take Oracle. You guys must spend a fortune on wands and pots.
The oracle is very cool. Yes, you lose the versatility of an arcane caster. But you will get some other cool things and still be able to smack some punks around.
I would note though, that the Fire Oracle can really benefit from the Haunted curse. Make holly berry boms with Fire Seeds, toss them at an enemy with Telekinesis and say the activation word when they get there. Yes, it costs you two spells to do the combo but the damage is pretty insane. More damage than Harm on average and it works in a 5 foot radius and ignites combustibles.
BaB +8/+3
Saves F/R/W 10/10/9(with a Cloak of Resistance +4)
4 Revelations(+1 bonus revelation from feat):
Cinder Dance: +10 base speed, Nimble moves and Acrobatic Steps as bonus feats.
Form of Flame: For 11 hours per day, fire elemental form(possible large, choosen medium, for +4 dex and +3 natural armor), immunity to bleed, critical hits and sneak attacks.
Molten Skin: Resist Fire 20.
Firestorm: Standard action for shapeable 11 10-foot-cubes of fire doing 11d6 of fire damage for 7 rounds once per day.
Wings of Fire: swift action for fly speed 60, for 11 times per day for 10 rounds each.
Haunted mystery:
Level 11=> mage hand, ghost sound, levitate, minor image, telekinesis on spell list.
Burning Hands, Resist Energy, Fireball, Wall of Fire, Summon Monster 5 as bonus spells.
Spells per day: 6/6/6/6/4
Spells known: 9/5/5/4/3/2
Level 3: Inflict Serious Wounds, Magic Circle against Evil, Dispel Magic, Prayer
Fireball + Cure Serious Wounds
Level 4: Inflict Critical Wounds, Freedom of Movement, Restoration
Wall of Fire + Cure Critical Wounds
Level 5: Flame Strike, Slay Living
Telekinesis + Summon Monster 5 + Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Recommended Wealth is 82000 GP:
10k Belt of Physical Might(Con/Dex) +2
16k Headband of alluring charisma +4
16k Cloak of Resistance +4
16.7k Glamered +3 Mithral Breast Plate
10k +3 Mithral Heavy Shield
8k Ring of Protection +2
2k Ring of Feather Falling
78.7k, rest in cash
Total AC: +3(Dex), +9(Armor), +5(Shield), +2(Deflection)=> 29 AC, 25 AC in elemental form.
As can be seen, i went with low strenght and wis. The intention for her never WAS to wade into battle. Neither with what Flame Oracle provides, nor with what Draconic Bloodline provides.
To be absolutely honest, the design base for this char, originally, was Lina Inverse of Slayers. ergo a blaster build.
After talking with my DM about how much worse it could be if i went controller instead of blaster, and about how i felt that if using primary my blaster spells(e.g. fireball with meta-magic enhancement) the oracle felt vastly superior, we sat down and worked something out.
The result is a hybrid form.
Claws (Ex):
: Starting at 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus. Each of these attacks deals 1d4 points of damage plus your Strength modifier (1d3 if you are Small). At 5th level, these claws are considered magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR. At 7th level, the damage increases by one step to 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if you are Small). At 11th level, these claws deal an additional 1d6 points of damage of your energy type on a successful hit. This is a supernatural ability. You can use your claws for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
from Dragon Bloodline have been replaced by
Cinder Dance (Ex):
: Your base speed increases by 10 feet. At 5th level, you receive Nimble Moves as a bonus feat. At 10th level, you receive Acrobatic Steps as a bonus feat. You do not need to meet the prerequisites to receive these feats.
Dragon Resistances (Ex):
: At 3rd level, you gain resist 5 against your energy type and a +1 natural armor bonus. At 9th level, your energy resistance increases to 10 and natural armor bonus increases to +2. At 15th level, your natural armor bonus increases to +4.
from Dragon Bloodline has been replaced by
Molten Skin (Ex):
: You gain resist fire 5. This resistance increases to 10 at 5th level and 20 at 11th level. At 17th level, you gain immunity to fire.
Breath Weapon (Su):
: At 9th level, you gain a breath weapon. This breath weapon deals 1d6 points of damage of your energy type per sorcerer level. Those caught in the area of the breath receive a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. The shape of the breath weapon depends on your dragon type (as indicated on the above chart). At 9th level, you can use this ability once per day. At 17th level, you can use this ability twice per day. At 20th level, you can use this ability three times per day.
from Dragon Bloodline has been replaced by
Firestorm (Su):
: As a standard action, you can cause fire to erupt around you. You can create one 10-foot cube of fire per oracle level. These cubes can be arranged in any pattern you desire, but each cube must be adjacent to another and one must be adjacent to you. Any creature caught in these flames takes 1d6 points of fire damage per oracle level, with a Reflex save resulting in half damage. This fire lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. You can use this ability once per day. You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.
Wings (Su):
: At 15th level, leathery dragon wings grow from your back as a standard action, giving you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. You can dismiss the wings as a free action.
from Dragon Bloodline has been replaced by
Wings of Fire (Su):
: As a swift action, you can manifest a pair of fiery wings that grant you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. You can use these wings for 1 minute per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1 minute increments. You must be at least 7th level before selecting this revelation.
Each ability gained when the replaced ability would have been gained.
Yes, she's homebrew now. The thing is, the main goal of the game is for everybody to have fun. While some of those things MAY be broken if used in powergaming, or with the potential of an arcane caster class played to it's fullest(as a "god")), here, they just fit in more with the flavor of what is wanted to be played.(Also note that there ARE some payoffs...e.g. basically draconic wings are on indefinitely, always granting you a fly speed...while wings of fire ARE limited)
Thanks a lot to you guys for trying to help, but i can't help but feel that in single-spell blaster builds(spell perfection on fireball, stack stuff like quickened, maximized, persistent, intensified with lesser rod of metamagic) an oracle will always come up superior to a sorcerer. They have the same amount of feats, the same blasting spell, more HP, armored casting, better skills and better "bloodline stuff"...
since i am currently the only arcane caster and i LIKE having those sorcerer/wizard-spelllist-options, i stick with sorcerer, but because i am NOT using the optimized options all the time(or even most of the time), i got my DM to meet halfway in the middle ;)
Thanks to everybody who offered advice, just wanted to let you know how things went.
