We just started a new campaign at 3rd level and i am playing a barbarian which currently has an AC of 16 or 14 when raging. I realized that it is likely going to be this low or lower if i take rechless abandon. I anticipated some of this a little bit and went with Invulnerable rager, though admitedly it is only dr 1/- right now.
So my question is should i worry about the Ac being so low and likely being low for a good amount of time to the point of not being worth it? or are there reasonable ways to mitigate this issue. Though i know there is.. rolling dodge? rage power.
Anyhow its the first time ive played a barb in PF so i was curious on how other shave solved this issue.
|
Don't worry about AC. You've got loads more hit points, plus DR. Besides, getting hurt a lot and then bashing thier faces in is part of the whole "Barbarian" style.
Don't neglect AC, either, of course, but don't place too much emphasis on it. It's not nearly as important for Barbarians as it is for Fighters, Monks, and Paladins.
It would help if we knew more about your past experiences. You mentioned that you've never played a Barbarian before - what have you played?
We just started a new campaign at 3rd level and i am playing a barbarian which currently has an AC of 16 or 14 when raging. I realized that it is likely going to be this low or lower if i take rechless abandon. I anticipated some of this a little bit and went with Invulnerable rager, though admitedly it is only dr 1/- right now.
So my question is should i worry about the Ac being so low and likely being low for a good amount of time to the point of not being worth it? or are there reasonable ways to mitigate this issue. Though i know there is.. rolling dodge? rage power.
Anyhow its the first time ive played a barb in PF so i was curious on how other shave solved this issue.
Barbarian can still have decent ac though it's not going to be like a defensively built fighter
In hide armor with a heavy shield you can have 16-22AC at level one dependent on your dex and if you want to invest in shield focus and dodge as feats. that is pretty respectible.
Oh, this is only our second PF campaign. in the first i played a Witch using the playtest rules, then.. shortly after the APG came out the dm decided to take a break. So other than a one off Halfling Cavalier i made this is only my third PF char.
in 3.5 ive playeda barbarian rogue ala conan, but the char got beaten into a pulp by ogres. about a year and a half ago. ive never gone witht he outright rar im a barbian big sword smush in recent memory though.
should i worry about the Ac being so low and likely being low for a good amount of time to the point of not being worth it?
Your AC is always low, but it is still working, and when the flanked fighter suffers -2 to AC and gets sneak attacked, your AC and Uncanny Dodge give you an advantage. Don't neglect it, but don't get paranoid about it.
I'm playing a Dwarf Barbarian with Heavy Shield, Breastplate and Dwarf Axe, so I have a nice AC and a decent damage output. But the rage powers and feats that best suit you depend of what you want to play.
Usually I've seen Barbarians go with the "best defense is a good offense" concept. It doesn't matter what your ac is if it's on the ground twitching.
Usually I've seen Barbarians go with the "best defense is a good offense" concept. It doesn't matter what your ac is if it's on the ground twitching.
+1
I am working on a Barb build as well and using a 2-handed weapon like an Earthbreaker or something like that. Large damage output, large crit multiplier. With high STR and power attack, I can be doing an easy +9 damage per hit at first level without raging.
AC was a perceived issue for me as well since I couldn't use a shield.
Do most Barb builds go with good Dex to help? I would think STR then CON, and then DEX.
Thoughts?
|
Your AC is always low, but it is still working, and when the flanked fighter suffers -2 to AC and gets sneak attacked, your AC and Uncanny Dodge give you an advantage. Don't neglect it, but don't get paranoid about it.
He's an invulnerable rager, which if my memory serves correctly, turns in Uncanny Dodge for more DR.
Dip 1 level of Fighter for Heavy Armor Proficiency and a Bonus Feat,
and your AC should be looking great in Full Plate, or blow the Feat for it. If you are maxing Acrobatics to use for Tumble on a regular basis, you can be using Mithril Breastplate without the Fighter dip, or if you take 4 levels of Fighter you can Tumble in Mithril Fullplate. I can`t remember right now, but I think Adamantine DR stacks with Barbarian Class Ability DR.
I would say that CON and DEX are about equal priorities...
Realistically, DEX is probably better because it affects your number of AoO`s (which is important with things like Unexpected Strike and Come and Get Me), even though there`s probaby more Barb`s with higher CON than DEX (including most of my own Barb PC`s). Drawing AoO`s is going to be alot more effective strategy than worrying about AC numbers too much... Using a Reach Weapon like a Glaive-Guisarme (chosen because it has decent damage/crit and trip quality) will give you alot more AoO opportunities (and if your enemy doesn`t threaten you in return, you can trip without worrying about AoO`s without having Imp Trip and Combat Expertise). Knockback, possibly in combo with Strength Surge, is usable on top of AoO`s, which will prevent alot of attacks agaisnt you (especially with Come and Get Me)...
Dip 1 level of Fighter for Heavy Armor Proficiency and a Bonus Feat,
and your AC should be looking great in Full Plate, or blow the Feat for it. If you are maxing Acrobatics to use for Tumble on a regular basis, you can be using Mithril Breastplate without the Fighter dip, or if you take 4 levels of Fighter you can Tumble in Mithril Fullplate. I can`t remember right now, but I think Adamantine DR stacks with Barbarian Class Ability DR.I would say that CON and DEX are about equal priorities...
Realistically, DEX is probably better because it affects your number of AoO`s (which is important with things like Unexpected Strike and Come and Get Me), even though there`s probaby more Barb`s with higher CON than DEX (including most of my own Barb PC`s). Drawing AoO`s is going to be alot more effective strategy than worrying about AC numbers too much... Using a Reach Weapon like a Glaive-Guisarme (chosen because it has decent damage/crit and trip quality) will give you alot more AoO opportunities (and if your enemy doesn`t threaten you in return, you can trip without worrying about AoO`s without having Imp Trip and Combat Expertise). Knockback, possibly in combo with Strength Surge, is usable on top of AoO`s, which will prevent alot of attacks agaisnt you (especially with Come and Get Me)...
I like the concept, esp the bit about tripping without Imp Trip and such. Thanks for the feedback.
I am working on a Barb build as well and using a 2-handed weapon like an Earthbreaker or something like that. Large damage output, large crit multiplier. With high STR and power attack, I can be doing an easy +9 damage per hit at first level without raging.
A good way to help with AC-issues for this kind of build is to avoid getting full-attacked.
Vital Strike can help you finish a foe right away, and you can use that high speed and try to maneuver where no one else can 5' to you.
If multiple enemies move up to you, Cleave them and Acrobatics away.
Spring Attack is feat intensive, but another option (and works with Vital Strike, though not Cleave).
|
|
Yeah.
It's also worth point out that Barbarians get a lot of maneuverability / movement class abilities (not as many as the monk, but still a respectable amount), along with a fair number of "escapes" / "resistances" to things.
You can't match a Fighter or Smiting Paladin in melee, but you've got a great deal of power and mobility.
Make friends with the paladin and convince him you will meat shield if he will lay hands and remove fatigue so you can rage again.........
Make friends with the witch and convince him/her that they should take ward and use it on you!
Make friends with the rogue and get him in to SA while you are flanking the BBEG!
Make friends with the arcane guy to get buff spells....
Make friends with the divine for healing cause your AC sucks!
;) you need friends!
Take magical knack wizard and the trait that gives you 1st caster level for purposes of using spell trigger items and use a wand of mirror image on yourself.
I'm currently playing a Halfling barbarian with the following stats at level 4:
STR 14 (18 when Raging) (+1 at 4th level included)
DEX 18
CON 14 (18 when raging)
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 10
Feats: Iron Will, Power Attack
Barb Powers: Strength Surge, Knockback
He's currently wearing a Masterwork chain shirt (AC +4), uses a Heavy Shield (AC +2), and has +4 from DEX, and +1 from Size. 21 AC, 19 when raging isn't bad. He's grown to love potions of Shield of Faith.
He fights with a Masterwork small Scimitar doing 1d4+6 damage normally, 1d4+8 when raging.
Remember, the + after the die is more important than the die roll for damage.
His 5th level feat is going to be Combat Reflexes.
+1 Dex>Con
Also, pick up a m/work buckler for your Shield Focus feat. +1 to Dodge feat.
That's +3 AC right there. As has been said don't neglect your AC either, instead of turning your +1 Greatsword into +1 Flaming, grab a ring of protection +1/ amulet of natural armour +1/ etc.
the trait that gives you 1st caster level for purposes of using spell trigger items and use a wand of mirror image on yourself.
What's the name of the trait? I want it !
I've personally found that at lower levels, the Barbarian is best served by getting a Heavy Shield and a One-handed Weapon, such as a Battle-Axe, Longsword, Scimitar, Heavy Pick or Warhammer, something with respectable damage-dice and in a pinch, you can toss the Shield at somebody's head and then go two-handed with your weapon.
At higher Levels ... invest in Magic Belts that give +'s to every physical score. Dexterity helps in many ways for the Barbarian, increasing their armor-class, giving them more Attacks of Opportunity, making those attack-rolls with the hideously over-tensioned Composite Greatbow/Longbow hit so that they really do hurt, so on and so forth.
Amulet of Natural Armor serves the Barbarian well,
Barbarians excell at Damage. Give a Barbarian anything from a Spear to a Spiked chain, send them at the enemy and try to avoid the chunks of flesh, blood and bone that will go flying. On the other hand, given their high health and endurance via their Damage Reduction and Rage Abilities, the Hulk-in-a-Can can be a great Tank too. Give the Barbarian Mithril Breastplate and a Shield with Arrow Catching and one Energy Resistance, Improved enchantment, and give his Breastplate two others (Preferences are Fire, Cold and Lightning, but ymmv) and a one-handed weapon with some tasty enchants such as Fierce Bane (Not Core, worked like a version of Bane that targeted your own type/subtype, then switched to whatever you hit for a round), Cleave, Defending or even Brilliant Energy which ruins the day of everything except the Undead and Golemns.
A Barbarian can get by with AC 20. That's 10 +2 (14 dex) +6 (Breastplate) +2 Enchantment bonus. Most Barbarians could pull that off around level 5th to 6th level comfortably and, if that's not enough, aforementioned Amulet of Natural Armor and bumping up their Breastplate's Enchantment bonus. The last Barbarian I played was a Half-Orc who used a standard steel Breastplate with the Greater Shadow and Glammered enchantments, a Cold Iron Heavy Shield with the Bashing and Arrow Catching enchantments and a Mithril Longsword with the Frost and Holy enchantments, served as the Party 'Tank' and while I did get hit more, I also hurt things more than the party Fighter thanks to the Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave and TWF feats and some judicious Rage Power applications. By level 15 he had an AC of 34, using an Amulet of Natural Armor +4, +5 Breastplate, +3 Shield and a Belt of Physical Perfection (+4) with stats 14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10 (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha), that's 10 + 4(dexterity+belt) +6 (breastplate) +4(Nat Armor Amulet) +5 (armor enchantment) +2 (Shield) +3 (Shield Enchantment). Then stack on his Damage Reduction and his ability to use Acrobatics and high speed to run circles around the enemy and keep them from getting near the rest of the party and you get the general impression.
|
I am also looking at the same issue, with a 10 in dex on a barbarian in studded leather. But, between the loads of HP you'll get later on, and the rage powers/feats that allow you basically to be in an "endless assault" mode (I really like "Come and Get Me" for this kind of situation), you can basically set yourself up to go for the kill before the damage dealt to you gets too high. It's a tightrope walk, but that's part of the fun of the class, in my personal opinion.
My barbarian has 18 AC at lvl 11 in our Rotrl game.
Its never once been a liability. With some resonable tactics like not charging foes and getting full attacked most things are dead before they can full attack me.
Taking full attack out of the equation the first hit of any foe at this level is still going to hit if I had 5-6 more ac so Im not lsing anything.
Doing 2d6+25 damage while power attacking with attacks at +20, 15, and 10 even the stone giants we face are no match for me. Add in the usual haste and bard song going its worse for the enemy.
|
Having played a Barbarian for about a year now I can honestly say my best defence is the 174hp I have whilst I am raging.
I'm 10th level and my AC is only 21 (19 whilst raging). This doesn't bother me. As far as I see it I am always going to get pummelled by a primary attack no matter what I do, so my AC is really only there for secondary and tertiary attacks.
Plus on top of that you have to remember that improved uncanny dodge is on your horizon to deal with all those pesky sneak attcks, at low levels 25 odd hp from a fireball won't even slow you down and at higher levels your immense fortitude save should mostly deal with all those disintegrates and finger of death spells.
Really your main weakness is anything that requires a Will save. Also be VERY nice to your healer as he/she will be working overtime to keep you well...
given with my barb ive gone two handed i dont know if the shield stuff is viable. That said though it appears i just need to remember to buy the amulets and the rings etc when they become availble to boost my AC and not ignore it.
though with buckler can you still wield the two hander and jus tnot get the Ac when you swing?
in regards to the poster bove me what about the few large monsters that if they get all their claw claws etc on you its going to hurt? like say grey render or something similar.
I am also looking at the same issue, with a 10 in dex on a barbarian in studded leather. But, between the loads of HP you'll get later on, and the rage powers/feats that allow you basically to be in an "endless assault" mode (I really like "Come and Get Me" for this kind of situation),
That ¨endless assault mode¨ will end pretty fast when you use up your 2 AoO`s (if you take Combat Reflexes). DEX is huge because it determines # of AoO`s. I think you`re fine starting it at 12, but you will definitely be wanting to bump it up via Belts or other means as you level up. Huge numbers of AoO`s aren`t going to be used most of the time, but you do want a decent number at the same time.
If you want to use a Buckler, I think using a weapon that can be used with 1 Hand is a really really good idea... unless you`re OK not being able to take AoO`s with your weapon (if you have Unarmed Strike or Natural Weapons, you could be OK with that). Bastard Sword and the Dwarven Waraxe or whatever are good for this, and Scimitars are good weapons too.
Even if your AC doesn`t compare with a Full Plate Fighter (though if you have Full Plate, possibly from dipping 1 level of Fighter for Proficiency, I`m not sure why everybody automatically assumes pure class builds, it`s not like that means much to characters in-game), `taking care` of your AC with the most efficient means possible (filling different slots to buff deflection, natural ac, shield AC, etc) is a good idea, both (as mentioned) to help against secondary attacks even if primary will nearly always hit... and because there`s actually a good number of monsters without Full BAB and uber-STR whose danger lies in ´status effects´ (poison, supernatural effects, etc) which trigger on each attack. A ´decent´ AC will help stop ALOT of those attacks... and this is certainly achievable by any Barbarian.
