Sidestep Secret and CMD


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

It's been asked before but no definitive answer has been forthcoming that I'm aware of so I'll try again and cross my fingers. Does an Oracle of Lore's Sidestep Secret revelation replace her Dexterity bonus with her Charisma bonus in regards to her Combat Maneuver Defence bonus or does it remain dependent on her Dex score?

PFSRD wrote:
Sidestep Secret (Su) Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws.


The ability does not specifically mention trading Dex for Cha in your CMD, so I would rule that it does not.

This, in my opinion, violates the flavor of the ability. It would seem logical that Sidestep Secret would apply to any instance in which charismatically fast reflexes would come in handy. Unfortunately, I can't find anything in the books that supports anything except what it says: Reflex saves and AC.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Dirlaise wrote:
The ability does not specifically mention trading Dex for Cha in your CMD, so I would rule that it does not.

This reminds me of the endless debates on Con to AC instead of Dex to AC and if your Con was limited by Max Dex. The writer of the book said you were, but the rules didn't clarify it like this sidestep does:

Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.

I read that rule as totally replacing your Dex with Cha whenever it would apply to AC. CMD adds Dex modifier and will add any of a wide array of general modifiers to AC.

So there are two ways to read this effect RAW:
1) Cheesy broken wrong way Dex no longer goes into you AC, so you have a penalty to your AC equal to your Dex modifier and a bonus equal to your Cha modifier. So in effect, you have a penalty to your CMD = Dex bonus and you don't add your Cha to CMD because it says Dex.

2) Correct clean clear interpretation. You lose Dex to AC and CMD. You gain Cha to AC and CMD.


Quote:
That is irrelevant, since any bonus you have to your AC is also explicitly added to your CMD.

Can you cite this?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Can you cite this?

No, as I was incorrectly remembering the passage on page 199. It adds all AC modifiers of a explicit type and the Oracle Sidestep doesn't type it.


Correct, CMD doesn´t include Untyped bonuses (or any besides those it litsts), although it was Errata´d 1 or 2 Errata´s ago to include Luck bonuses. I think there are a few other rarely mentioned types floating around there, so rare because they are pretty unique, but those also won´t per RAW. Kind of sad when it takes less word count to either derive from Touch AC directly or say ´all bonuses EXCEPT armor, shield, nat. armor´ apply. I play with Untyped AC bonuses (that apply to TOuch AC) appling to CMD.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Sidestep Secret and CMD All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.