It says in the new APG that if you take the new Magical Lineage trait you are able to reduce one spell by 1 when you apply any metamagic feats. Ok, is the following legal?
A 14th level evoker takes the magical lineage trait and chooses magic missile as his spell. He wants to memorize a maximized, empowered, intensified magic missile. Here is how I calculate the damage:
7d4+7 (because of the intensified feat) x 1.5 (empowered)
plus
35 (maximized)
plus
7 (evocation class feature)
For a total of about 56 damage.
Now, due to the magical lineage trait, what is the spell slot needed to memorize this spell? Is the slot reduced by 1 or is it reduced by one for every metamagic feat applied? Do I use 7th level slot or a 4th level slot?
Intensify Spell PROBABLY doesn't work on magic missiles. It increases the damage cap, and strictly speaking, magic missile has a number of missiles cap, not a number of dice rolled cap. That number of missiles cap does more than just increase the amount of damage done, it also allows for extra targets to be selected.
I say probably because maybe it will get errata'd in as working with MM, but most likely not. I don't think its unbalanced personally, but I wouldn't build a character around the concept if you aren't willing to work with the GM on the Intensify Spell feats limits.
Empowered is still a bit wonky as well with magic missiles AFAIK in that its not official whether the formula should be (1d4+1)x1.5 per missile, or ((1d4)x1.5)+1 per missile. Its not a huge difference, but getting that extra +1 in the multiplier helps out the average damage a bit.
Unfortunately there's a couple problems with your calculations. For one, Intensified Spell doesn't work like that. An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels. It won't increase the number of missiles fired. (So it has no effect on Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, etc.)
With the Magical Lineage trait, it's extremely clear that it only decreases the cost by 1:
Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When
you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level
as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
However I am confused about whether or not you could say, cast a Merciful Magic Missile as a 0-level spell. (Wow, I just confused myself even more. If you did that, would you be able to cast it unlimited times per day?) The example I usually pose is a 2nd level fireball. Whether or not the rules explicitly state that you can't do this, (haven't found it yet)expect this to be ruled against by GM fiat. I suppose some could justify that since you're so familiar with the chosen spell, that you're able to use it at a lower level, but it just opens it up for all kinds of cheese. (I'm worried about cantrip mount or some such. Summon a horse every six seconds?)
Anyway, back to the calculation. Through Magical Lineage, when you apply metamagic to Magic Missile, it'll be treated as a 0 level spell.
Normally Magic Missile does 5d4+5.
If you applied Empower and Maximize, it would be a 5th level spell, dealing as follows:
(5+(1d4 x .5))*5 or 25 + (5d4 x .5)
...for an average of 31.25 damage overall.
Hopefully I did that right? >.>
Is the slot reduced by 1 or is it reduced by one for every metamagic feat applied? Do I use 7th level slot or a 4th level slot?
It is reduced by 1 total, not by 1 for each feat applied.
Intensify Spell PROBABLY doesn't work on magic missiles. It increases the damage cap, and strictly speaking, magic missile has a number of missiles cap, not a number of dice rolled cap. That number of missiles cap does more than just increase the amount of damage done, it also allows for extra targets to be selected.
I say probably because maybe it will get errata'd in as working with MM, but most likely not. I don't think its unbalanced personally, but I wouldn't build a character around the concept if you aren't willing to work with the GM on the Intensify Spell feats limits.
Empowered is still a bit wonky as well with magic missiles AFAIK in that its not official whether the formula should be (1d4+1)x1.5 per missile, or ((1d4)x1.5)+1 per missile. Its not a huge difference, but getting that extra +1 in the multiplier helps out the average damage a bit.
Right, I've never been sure about that empowered business. >.< I wish they'd just let us stack empower and maximize like we want it too: Maximized damage * 1.5.
...and I'd have to agree about Intensify Spell. It should increase all caps by 5. Not sure how I'd rule it if I were actually running a campaign, though.
Is the slot reduced by 1 or is it reduced by one for every metamagic feat applied? Do I use 7th level slot or a 4th level slot?It is reduced by 1 total, not by 1 for each feat applied.
Yes, thank God, Pathfinder didn't make Arcane Thesis.
...but can anyone site a ruling that forbids you to cast at a lower spell slot? (Or at least forbidden through that trait?) If not, can you cast a 1st level Merciful Spell affected by the trait as a cantrip? D:
From my understanding, if you could prepare a 1st level spell as a 0th level spell through Magical Lineage, it would be treated as a cantrip. >.<
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).
...but can anyone site a ruling that forbids you to cast at a lower spell slot? (Or at least forbidden through that trait?)
I don't think anyone can. From what I recall, all the 3.5 feats and class features that reduced metamagic costs specifically said they couldn't reduce the cost to less than 0 (in some cases, not to less than 1). IMO, this trait should also have specified that.
Personally, I would rule that applying a 0-cost metamagic feat would not cause the final spell to have a reduced spell slot, simply because there's too much cheese that can be had that way.
...but can anyone site a ruling that forbids you to cast at a lower spell slot? (Or at least forbidden through that trait?)I don't think anyone can. From what I recall, all the 3.5 feats and class features that reduced metamagic costs specifically said they couldn't reduce the cost to less than 0 (in some cases, not to less than 1). IMO, this trait should also have specified that.
Personally, I would rule that applying a 0-cost metamagic feat would not cause the final spell to have a reduced spell slot, simply because there's too much cheese that can be had that way.
I would definitely agree, just curious about RAW. I guess it'll have to be by GM ruling until we hear from the powers that be. :B
These books are often collections of ideas written by different people and put together. As far as I know, the traits have been around for a while (in one of the APs I believe); whoever wrote the Merciful Spell didn't take account of the trait, nor was the trait was updated in lewd of this new feat.
It says in the new APG that if you take the new Magical Lineage trait you are able to reduce one spell by 1 when you apply any metamagic feats. Ok, is the following legal?
A 14th level evoker takes the magical lineage trait and chooses magic missile as his spell. He wants to memorize a maximized, empowered, intensified magic missile.
For a total of about 56 damage.
Do I use 7th level slot or a 4th level slot?
Even if this would work it would be a bad idea. 56 damage? For a fourth level spell, when the alternatives are Black Tentacles or Solid Fog?
Are there actually any metamagic feats that do not increase the level of the spell? Magical Lineage only decreases the level of the spell in regards to applying metamagic feats, so I can't see how you would have a lvl2 fireball or lvl 0 mount spell.
My character has Magical Lineage: Fireball and he just learned Selective Spell. I'm really happy that now I can fireball the group and not hurt anybody (+7 INT Mod due to HIGH INT and Headband) without increasing the level of the spell. Now all my fireballs are slective. :)
Are there actually any metamagic feats that do not increase the level of the spell? Magical Lineage only decreases the level of the spell in regards to applying metamagic feats, so I can't see how you would have a lvl2 fireball or lvl 0 mount spell.
My character has Magical Lineage: Fireball and he just learned Selective Spell. I'm really happy that now I can fireball the group and not hurt anybody (+7 INT Mod due to HIGH INT and Headband) without increasing the level of the spell. Now all my fireballs are slective. :)
Merciful Spell is the only one, currently.
Ah. I assume it's in the Advanced Player's Guide. I don't own a copy yet because I'm trying to support my local game store and their distributer has been waiting for Paizo to ship them more for 2 weeks now.
As for the ruling on the Magical Lineage and Merciful Spell... I think it's safe to assume Merciful Spell just converts lethal damage to non-lethal. As a GM, I would rule that with Magical Lineage, the level of the spell cannot be reduced below it's starting level. Otherwise, you can be throwing Merciful Magic Missiles all day long (or 5 at a time if you're high enough level).
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Ah. I assume it's in the Advanced Player's Guide. I don't own a copy yet because I'm trying to support my local game store and their distributer has been waiting for Paizo to ship them more for 2 weeks now.
As for the ruling on the Magical Lineage and Merciful Spell... I think it's safe to assume Merciful Spell just converts lethal damage to non-lethal. As a GM, I would rule that with Magical Lineage, the level of the spell cannot be reduced below it's starting level. Otherwise, you can be throwing Merciful Magic Missiles all day long (or 5 at a time if you're high enough level).
As a player, I try to limit the amount of cheese I use to build to what I consider plain-text reading of the rules.
I've seen a lot of people posting on the board with the assumption that if they reduce a 1st level spell to a 0-level spell through metamagic that it becomes a cantrip. The Core Rules seem to differ with 0-level spells by placing them in a separate category (cantrip, orisons, etc.). It's my guess that if Jason/James et al had wanted to make any spell who's effective level is 0 not be expended, they could have avoided placing in (in the Wizard's case) six lines of text, and said "A spell with an effective level of 0 is not expended when cast."
I understand the desire to make a useful spell that you can cast all day long, that also scales with level.
For my wizard, I took a different approach. I took the magical lineage feat, and selected Acid Splash. It is a cantrip, and can be cast all day long. Now, with that, I can take 1-bump metamagic, and cast all day long.
The campaign that I am in allows some WOTC outside material, so I'm looking at Easy Metamagic and using feats like Sickening Spell, Fell Frighten, Fell Weaken.
While not uber powerful, it allows a wizard to take on a secondary role similar to a bard in fights long after he has run out of the big-gun spells. (It's always useful to sicken an opposing creature, or to weaken it, or frighten it. If you can eventually do multiple at once, then you can accumulate negative effects on it.)