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I am a great fan of all of Paizos PFAPs. I also got most of the ST AP, and I think that the first half is awesome, while the second (say, SoS and forth) is rather lucklaster, boering and disappointing.
Suddenly I began to wonder weather I shuold get SC and AoW - are they as good as the later APs? I heard that AoW was very dungeon-crawl oriented (which, if it turns to be true, is enough to prevent me from getting it) but I know nothing whatsoever about SC.
so should I get them? what could be said about the two, in comparison with ST and the PFAPs?
thanks!
I think they're both good, but they both need some work. In that sense, they're about the same as Rise of the Runelords (say).
The big advantage with Shackled City (in my opinion) is that you can buy it for $30 and it comes in one handsome, convenient volume.
The big advantage with Shackled City (in my opinion) is that you can buy it for $30 and it comes in one handsome, convenient volume.
I continue to be amazed they still have some of these left. Even if you didn't run it as a complete AP, you could mine it endlessly for good ideas and NPCs and encounters and...you get the idea. The fact it's a massive hardcover compilation (that includes more than the AP found in the original issues) for only $30... an astounding value.
Plus, if you do want to give it a go, there's a treasure of forums on running it.
As a matter of fact, I am running a PF converted Age of Worms campaign right now. We are 3 sessions into the game playing every other Sunday. I've slightly altered a few things (since I'm using the medium xp track), but aside from just substituting PF monsters for ones that match and slightly raising the HP of 3.5 monsters to about 75-80% of max instead of average, I haven't done much conversions.
There are a few more extensive conversion I have or will be doing. Some of which I plan on posting, at least after my players have bypassed/defeated them.
I am a great fan of all of Paizos PFAPs. I also got most of the ST AP, and I think that the first half is awesome, while the second (say, SoS and forth) is rather lucklaster, boering and disappointing.
Suddenly I began to wonder weather I shuold get SC and AoW - are they as good as the later APs? I heard that AoW was very dungeon-crawl oriented (which, if it turns to be true, is enough to prevent me from getting it) but I know nothing whatsoever about SC.so should I get them? what could be said about the two, in comparison with ST and the PFAPs?
thanks!
I suspect the quality of SCAP and AOW are mostly irrelevant to you - both really love their dungeons and therefore you should probably stay away.
I ran Shackled City to conclusion, from the magazines, and it was one of the best campaigns I ever ran. We had a blast like little else. That being said it needed A TON of work to make it flow appropriately. There are a ton of forums on how to do that, however. I felt that, at first, the dungeons were too large but then became manageable sized and fun to play. I, nor my players, are fans of large dungeon crawls so while it dragged at first it got better. There's lots of intrigue and excitement in the campaign with some really interesting moments.
I read through Age of Worms but did not run it. However, it is the AP that got me into finding more out about this whole "Adventure Path" thing. The tone is very dark and Lovecraftian and uber-cool. There are lots of dungeons but they do not go overboard from the looks of it. They seem to be of manageable size and complexity so it doesn't look to be a detraction from the AP as a whole. However, the story might need some work with it's establishing then dropping cool plot lines and locations (Rod of Seven Parts and Diamond Lake, anyone?).
My opinion of both SCAP and AoW is that they are worth the investment. The SCAP Hardcover definitely, though if you can find the AoW Dungeon issues for cheap they are def worth getting. AoW looks to be more fun, but SCAP is way less expensive to get and still a blast.
Another classic I love to plug when discussing APs is the old Dragonlance series. Converted to 3.5 the length of the game is the same as any of the Dungeon APs and it was the best DMing experience I had in 2nd Ed. SCAP was the best I had in 3.5 though it may be eclipsed by Rise of the Runelords, which I am prepping to run now.
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I DM'd both and they both were a blast! The only thing I can say is that it depends on your group - especially with AoW. If you have a party of folks who want to roleplay, buy businesses - I had one dude who wanted to take over the Greyhawk arena - etc, then this is NOT the AP for you. If you have a group of folks that like to duke it out with cool undead, giants, dragons and a god, then you'll love this one.
I DM'd both and they both were a blast! The only thing I can say is that it depends on your group - especially with AoW. If you have a party of folks who want to roleplay, buy businesses - I had one dude who wanted to take over the Greyhawk arena - etc, then this is NOT the AP for you. If you have a group of folks that like to duke it out with cool undead, giants, dragons and a god, then you'll love this one.
I disagree with some of this. Diamond Lake is only as throw-away as a DM makes it. The group I am running through this now, has had one mine manager arrested, another ran out of town, and allied with the rest to form a mining consortium. This in between buying large tracts of land and businesses razed in a dragon attack and expanding the greysmere covenant after strengthening ties with the dwarves to the east of the mistmarsh. Oh yeah, and the founding of 2 temples and the start-up of a mercenary guild/training facility.
I think before you turn completely away from the APs, you need to define what "dungeon crawl" means to you.
If it means something like that monster book of "The World Largest Dungeon" or, say, "Undermountain", then the APs are likely fine.
If it means "setting foot into a dungeon for longer than it takes to bring the prisoner to trial" then don't bother with the APs.
Most of the dungeons in the APs are there for good reasons, and while some parts of them can get tedious (the Kenku Labyrinth, or the Spire of Long Shadows Worm Tunnels) it can be easily said that ANY aspect of the game can get tedious if the players loose interest in it.
The APs are both well written, and goldmines of ideas and inspiration. Admittedly, I changed several things, but that didn't mean the magazines didn't save me dozens of hours of game prep time, or give my players over 3 years of adventures they still remember.
Just like a computer, the APs are high quality, but not exactly something you get the best use of "out of the box". They take customization and personalization to truly make them shine.
I loved DMing both of them, and my group loved running through them. RE: the dungeon crawl parts - any AP has big dungeon crawl segments, as well as heavy role play segments, to make itself attractive to a larger audience. DMs then get to emphasize the areas they like and skim over the areas they don't.
My group hates dungeon crawls, so I've made two standard changes that actually has them enjoying these again:
1) I prepare a players map for them and give it to them at the start
2) I give them a "beacon" of some kind that lets them home in on the prize (whatever that is), so they're not wandering through the whole thing aimlessly
Getting the map gets worked into the story in role playing goals of some sort, which is what they enjoy doing. Once in the dungeon, since they don't have to concentrate on imagining the shape of the room, halls, whatever, I find that they focus in better on my scene setting descriptions (humidity, sounds, temperature, texture)and respond accordingly.
The beacon happens in lots of different ways. I really just mean some type of plot device (an NPC guide, a journal, a spell, whatever) that lets them know what the main path is. Usually, they wind up exploring off the path on their own, but it becomes less frustraing for them because they KNOW they are making a side trek and they are CHOOSING to do it.
After the horrid sighs I got in Shackled City from the dungeon crawls (though they much enjoyed the rest of it), I started using this strategy in the AoW games. They loved it, and I've kept it through that one and Curse of the Crimson Throne, and it's worked very well.
I've found a good way to deal with dungeon crawls. The guys like them, the girls don't. My friend's big TV has the plugs for my laptop. I scan the maps and then spend an hour or so going to work on them with Paint. I'll keep the entry way and delete the rest. Save it as "Entry." Then do another with entry way and the next room, or hallway, whatever, and erase the rest. Save a new file.
Depending on the size of the dungeon and how it's laid out, I end up with anywhere from six to twelve jpegs that I throw up on my friend's big screen. The players know where they are and where they're going, but don't have to deal with mapping for themselves.
It gets even easier when a wizard casts prying eyes, then you can just put up the whole map.
I will admit that finding a grid square without a " S " on it that matches, copying and pasting it can be a bit of a hassle, but if you're careful, with the resolution of most TVs, the quality of the scan and the distance the players sit from the TV, they usually don't notice.
As for whether or not to go back to SC and/or AoW, I would say that depends on if you're going to make them a part of the history of your world. The AP creators loosely associated SC, AoW, and ST with each other (Celeste, the Worm Festival in ST, etc). So if you're interested in a continuous history, I'd say go back for them.
I like them, and I'm actually running Age of Worms right now, but they are not without flaws. Sometimes major flaws, particularly in high-level parts, which often do not take into account stuff double-digit level characters can do. Both plot and statblocks need to be polished by GM from time to time.
As a note, like, really, the great majority of published DnD adventures, they try to minimize their impact on the setting, as far as it is possible, and to avoid giving PCs rewards nonrelated to killpower until the game ends - as SC, AoW and ST feature particularly epic and high-level adventures, this, and the need to remedy this in actual campaigns should be specifically pointed out.
I disagree with some of this. Diamond Lake is only as throw-away as a DM makes it. The group I am running through this now, has had one mine manager arrested, another ran out of town, and allied with the rest to form a mining consortium. This in between buying large tracts of land and businesses razed in a dragon attack and expanding the greysmere covenant after strengthening ties with the dwarves to the east of the mistmarsh. Oh yeah, and the founding of 2 temples and the start-up of a mercenary guild/training facility.
Diamond Lake, like all starting small towns, is an inevitable throwaway, because, despite traditionally inflated NPC levels and whatever, there is nothing that can possibly interest PCs that hit level 9 or so in it, unless the plot rails circle back to it, and they don't. Particularly if the GM uses wealth-related houserules that make sense, or enforces WBL no matter what, so just squeezing money from weathy NPCs does not necessarily give anything important to the party. Oh, and the whole town, as written, is a shoddy hive of scum and villainy, so it is hard to imagine PCs will be sentimetally attached to it.
Diamond Lake, like all starting small towns, is an inevitable throwaway, because, despite traditionally inflated NPC levels and whatever, there is nothing that can possibly interest PCs that hit level 9 or so in it, unless the plot rails circle back to it, and they don't. Particularly if the GM uses wealth-related houserules that make sense, or enforces WBL no matter what, so just squeezing money from weathy NPCs does not necessarily give anything important to the party. Oh, and the whole town, as written, is a shoddy hive of scum and villainy, so it is hard to imagine PCs will be sentimetally attached to it.
I disagree with some of this. Diamond Lake is only as throw-away as a DM makes it. The group I am running through this now, has had one mine manager arrested, another ran out of town, and allied with the rest to form a mining consortium. This in between buying large tracts of land and businesses razed in a dragon attack and expanding the greysmere covenant after strengthening ties with the dwarves to the east of the mistmarsh. Oh yeah, and the founding of 2 temples and the start-up of a mercenary guild/training facility.
Except to try to save it. What do-gooder worth his starting equipment could allow the injustices of the debtor prison mines stand? Not the ones in my party, thats for sure. And the whole town is not scum and villiany, as there are plenty of potential allies here. Allustan, The Free City Garrison with their chapel to Heironyus, the somewhat off-kilter cleric of Cuthbert, and the druidic circle all spring immediately to mind. If I had the backdrop in front of me, I could surely find 2 or 3 more good hearted potential allies in town.
As I said, any location is only as throw away as you decide to make it. Is it a throw away in your location? Sounds like it. Not in mine. My PCs seem to have made it their personal mission to redeem Diamond Lake, turning it into the most powerful shining bastion of goodness this side of the Nyr Dyv. They are currently in the process of dredging and cleansing the waters of Diamond Lake to cement their alliance with the druids. (Who have mysteriously left Diamond Lake, Unbeknowst to the group, Obad-Hai has called them away on a holy quest as some idiot group freed his old enemy, Krathanos. Haha) Yup. Diamond Lake, nothing exciting there.
Except to try to save it. What do-gooder worth his starting equipment could allow the injustices of the debtor prison mines stand? Not the ones in my party, thats for sure. And the whole town is not scum and villiany, as there are plenty of potential allies here. Allustan, The Free City Garrison with their chapel to Heironyus, the somewhat off-kilter cleric of Cuthbert, and the druidic circle all spring immediately to mind. If I had the backdrop in front of me, I could surely find 2 or 3 more good hearted potential allies in town.As I said, any location is only as throw away as you decide to make it.
Wrong. Some locations, like Diamond Lake, are throwaway, unless you decide to make them otherwise. By, you know, investing extra effort and whatever. Making Allustan not a dumbass, other decent NPCs remotely relevant to the game (as in, appearing at all), and so on...
Is it a throw away in your location? Sounds like it. Not in mine. My PCs seem to have made it their personal mission to redeem Diamond Lake, turning it into the most powerful shining bastion of goodness this side of the Nyr Dyv. They are currently in the process of dredging and cleansing the waters of Diamond Lake to cement their alliance with the druids. (Who have mysteriously left Diamond Lake, Unbeknowst to the group, Obad-Hai has called them away on a holy quest as some idiot group freed his old enemy, Krathanos. Haha) Yup. Diamond Lake, nothing exciting there.
Sorry, but the only exciting thing in your description is related to people leaving Diamond Lake...
Wrong. Some locations, like Diamond Lake, are throwaway, unless you decide to make them otherwise. By, you know, investing extra effort and whatever. Making Allustan not a dumbass, other decent NPCs remotely relevant to the game (as in, appearing at all), and so on...
Except to try to save it. What do-gooder worth his starting equipment could allow the injustices of the debtor prison mines stand? Not the ones in my party, thats for sure. And the whole town is not scum and villiany, as there are plenty of potential allies here. Allustan, The Free City Garrison with their chapel to Heironyus, the somewhat off-kilter cleric of Cuthbert, and the druidic circle all spring immediately to mind. If I had the backdrop in front of me, I could surely find 2 or 3 more good hearted potential allies in town.As I said, any location is only as throw away as you decide to make it.
Its not so much investing extra effort into them, so much as Dming them as something more than just a bag of hit points and loot. Theres a reason that Paizo included all that backdrop information, you know. Its so that you could make Diamond Lake as throw-away as you like it.
Is it a throw away in your location? Sounds like it. Not in mine. My PCs seem to have made it their personal mission to redeem Diamond Lake, turning it into the most powerful shining bastion of goodness this side of the Nyr Dyv. They are currently in the process of dredging and cleansing the waters of Diamond Lake to cement their alliance with the druids. (Who have mysteriously left Diamond Lake, Unbeknowst to the group, Obad-Hai has called them away on a holy quest as some idiot group freed his old enemy, Krathanos. Haha) Yup. Diamond Lake, nothing exciting there.
Sorry, but the only exciting thing in your description is related to people leaving Diamond Lake...
Which is still Diamond Lake related. If your PCs only care what the location can give them as far as xp and loot-wise, then yeah, probably throw-away to a high level party. If they, you know, role-play in a role-playing game, then there is still plenty for them there. Adventures are like rock stars or famous hollywood actors. Do you think rock stars or famous hollywood actors never return home from time to time? So once again, only as throw-away as you make it.