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So I've had an interesting situation come up that I can't seem to understand per the other questions posted here on the forums. If I've overlooked said answer, forgive me.
One of my fellow players has created a Summoner from the recently released PF:APG for Curse of the Crimson Throne. His Eidolon is a Bipedal with claws and a slam attack. The inquiry regards whether all three of these attacks can be used per round.
MY understanding is that each limb can only be used once per round, and that the maximum number of natural attacks per round that can be achieved is in Table 2-9 Eidolon Base Statistics. In this case it would be 3. All three attacks, 2 claws and a slam attack, can only be achieved if the 2 claws are on separate limbs (1/limb), and that the slam attack is being performed with yet another set of limbs. What this player is attempting to do is place these claws on the feet of the Eidolon, and use the hands to slam attack in the round. So, Kick Kick Slam as a full attack action.
My question is: Is this doable? The motion seems incredibly awkward, logically. I mean if you're trying to slash with your feet, not just a basic kick, it seems fairly awkward, and hindering your balance. Since this thing is a magical creature, it obviously can abide by its own rules of physics, but I've not encountered (in my brief time with PF) a creature that can use 2 leg-based claws and another attack in a round without Raking with the hind legs. It just seems odd, and a little over the top. It almost sounds like he's trying to build a monk Eidolon, but again my experience with PF is limited.
Any input would be appreciated. Thanks ^_^ d
Have a day
Well, the raptor (sorry, Deinonychus) can make attacks with his legs, arms and bite all in one round without having to be rakes.
Typically, "foot claws" that aren't rakes are usually Talons, but I found the Eidolon a little lacking in the animal mimicry options.
It seems the claws entry allows applying the claws to your legs at least once... although that's typically meant for four-legged creatures (like the lion), there's nothing that really limits this from being used on a biped.
I'd picture it like the way a raptor attacks (see: Jurassic Park), except take out the bite and hand claws and replace it with a slamming punch with his arms.
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Well, the raptor (sorry, Deinonychus) can make attacks with his legs, arms and bite all in one round without having to be rakes.
Typically, "foot claws" that aren't rakes are usually Talons, but I found the Eidolon a little lacking in the animal mimicry options.It seems the claws entry allows applying the claws to your legs at least once... although that's typically meant for four-legged creatures (like the lion), there's nothing that really limits this from being used on a biped.
I'd picture it like the way a raptor attacks (see: Jurassic Park), except take out the bite and hand claws and replace it with a slamming punch with his arms.
Makes sense to me. I guess I was just thinking about it realistically instead of to mechanic. Thanks for the input :D
What if your player re-imagined it to two claw attacks on the hands (wolverine style) and a kick/slam attack. Would this fit your view of the physics better?
My understanding was that the slam attack was with both hands hammering down on the target. I could have misinterpreted the raw though.
Slam (Ex): An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam
attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The
eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this
evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws
from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs
1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more
than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number
of the limbs evolution.
Emphases mine.
It implies that it is a singular attack, so I can imagine a single kick as easily as a punch or double punch attack. However, it does stipulate arms over just limbs so I guess kicking is out. There is nothing in RAW preventing primary attacks with the eidolon's feet, but as a DM I may be tempted to rule against it depending on how cheesy the reasoning was.
What if your player re-imagined it to two claw attacks on the hands (wolverine style) and a kick/slam attack. Would this fit your view of the physics better?My understanding was that the slam attack was with both hands hammering down on the target. I could have misinterpreted the raw though.
A slam attack could be a tail whack or a head butt it has nothing to do with other natural weapons a creature may have.
The Eidolon may be a specific case here. Going by the posted text, the Eidolon's slam requires the use of an arm, not tail or head or anything else.
So in the case of this player's character build... it'll have to be two talon/claw like leaping attacks from the legs, and a slamming strike from the arms. To keep with RAW anyways.
There is a 'tail slam' option, but it is a different evolution (and isn't a primary attack). I could see re-flavoring the 'gore' evolution into a head slam attack. But 'slam' is specific for arms. I don't think it breaks the evolution to house rule it so any limb can make the attack, but that depends on how your group feels about house rules.
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Ah, there's that word again, the one that can mean both under and overpowered...
I am of course, talking about the bolded word below.
It's broken content.
I do agree that slam is weak though. Then again, if you want a b*tch-smaking Eidolon for when someone ticks you off, there isn't a better evolution.
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It implies that it is a singular attack, so I can imagine a single kick as easily as a punch or double punch attack. However, it does stipulate arms over just limbs so I guess kicking is out. There is nothing in RAW preventing primary attacks with the eidolon's feet, but as a DM I may be tempted to rule against it depending on how cheesy the reasoning was.
Well, cheesy is kind of the way the guy's going. I mean his Eidolon is based off Lucario (Pokemon). I know...don't get me started...
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You can certainly do Claw/Claw/Slam, with one set of arms. There are monsters that have only a single set of arms that slam twice :P
I believe the rule (though I may be mistaken) about only using a limb once in an attack applies to the interaction between natural and manufactured attacks, i.e. that Eidolon can't Claw/Claw/Dagger/Dagger with just two hands, he used his hands for natural attacks so he can't then use Daggers with them.
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You can certainly do Claw/Claw/Slam, with one set of arms. There are monsters that have only a single set of arms that slam twice :P
I believe the rule (though I may be mistaken) about only using a limb once in an attack applies to the interaction between natural and manufactured attacks, i.e. that Eidolon can't Claw/Claw/Dagger/Dagger with just two hands, he used his hands for natural attacks so he can't then use Daggers with them.
Er...no I don't think that's correct. The Slam evolution states that an Eidolon can get a slam attack for a pair of arms or replace the claws of the base form with it.
Other monsters usage of slam has nothing to do with the Eidolon. Monsters often have somewhat out of the ordinary rules.