Nimble advanced mutagen's natural armor bonus stack with standard mutagen natural armor bonus?

[Ravingdork]

Does the natural armor bonus from the Nimble advanced mutagen from the master chymist prestige class stack with standard mutagen's natural armor bonus?

I know the general rule is that like bonuses don't normally stack, but if it doesn't stack, why was it made into a natural armor bonus in the first place? If they don't stack, then then bonus might as well not exist (since you already get it).

Please FAQ this if you think it needs official clarification.

[Jabbersnatch]

Ravingdork wrote:

Does the natural armor bonus from the Nimble advanced mutagen from the master chymist prestige class stack with standard mutagen's natural armor bonus?

I know the general rule is that like bonuses don't normally stack, but if it doesn't stack, why was it made into a natural armor bonus in the first place? If they don't stack, then then bonus might as well not exist (since you already get it).

Please FAQ this if you think it needs official clarification.

It would make much more sense as a dodge bonus anyway, although perhaps they considered this too powerful. Anyone know what the bonus to "Dexterity checks" applies to? The only non-skill Dex check I've seen that I think would be affected is Initiative, although even that alone would be pretty good.

[Bascaria]

Oddly, the Nimble Advanced Mutagen is the only advanced mutagen which doesn't mention that it works in the mutagenic form, which leads me to believe that perhaps it works all the time, not just when in the mutagenic form?

When in mutagenic form, though, it doesn't seem like it would stack. Neither it nor the typical mutagen grants an enhancement bonus to natural armor an increase to natural armor, just a flat natural armor bonus, which won't stack with other flat natural armor bonuses. Definitely a FAQ, though, for that and the question of when it is on... unless someone has an answer to that?

[Jabbersnatch]

Bascaria wrote:

Oddly, the Nimble Advanced Mutagen is the only advanced mutagen which doesn't mention that it works in the mutagenic form, which leads me to believe that perhaps it works all the time, not just when in the mutagenic form?

When in mutagenic form, though, it doesn't seem like it would stack. Neither it nor the typical mutagen grants an enhancement bonus to natural armor an increase to natural armor, just a flat natural armor bonus, which won't stack with other flat natural armor bonuses. Definitely a FAQ, though, for that and the question of when it is on... unless someone has an answer to that?

Hello again. You're right, the armor bonuses don't technically stack by RAW, as discussed here. This seems probably accidental though. As for Nimble applying outside of your mutagenic form, I thought the same thing for a while until I noticed:

Quote:

Advanced Mutagen(Su): At 2nd level, the mutagenic form of the master chymist continues to evolve and develop as she grows in power. The master chymist selects an advanced mutagen, a power that changes how her mutagen form works or can only be accessed in her mutagenic form.

Do you know of any other Dexterity Checks in the rules, by chance?

[DendasGarrett]

Was this ever answered? Looking at this build and curious for some clarification.

[Blave]

Sorry for the thread-necro, but I'd like an answer to that question as well and it would be a shame to let all those FAQ-flags it has already gathered go to waste.

[Mortalis]

I too would like an answer to this. FAQ bump.

[Cerberus Seven]

Ravingdork wrote:

Does the natural armor bonus from the Nimble advanced mutagen from the master chymist prestige class stack with standard mutagen's natural armor bonus?

I know the general rule is that like bonuses don't normally stack, but if it doesn't stack, why was it made into a natural armor bonus in the first place? If they don't stack, then then bonus might as well not exist (since you already get it).

Please FAQ this if you think it needs official clarification.

Forgive me, as I might be missing something obvious here, but why is there any confusion on how this works? The DEX and natural armor bumps provided by Nimble do not stack with those given by a base mutagen because, at higher levels, the Master Chymist will get a larger bonus to these scores than what the base mutagen would provide. If the alchemist in question is going to be taking the greater mutagen, or especially the grand mutagen, discovery then they probably wouldn't take this advanced mutagen because of those same stacking concerns.

[Blave]

Well, there's the problem. The other bonuses aren't exactly stellar. The AC bonus is pretty much the only reason to take nimble.
And an ability callled "nimble" giving a natural armor bonus is counter intuitive. So maybe it should be a dodge bonus? Or an enhancement bonus to natural armor? Or maybe it should just say it stacks with the mutagen AC?

Don't get me wrong, by RAW, you are totally right. They don't stack. The question is just, is this an oversight or RAI.

And there's also the issue of nimble not stating that it works only in mutagenic form. So maybe it doesn't stack, but provides a bonus to natural AC even in the master chymists normal form.

[Cerberus Seven]

Blave wrote:

Well, there's the problem. The other bonuses aren't exactly stellar. The AC bonus is pretty much the only reason to take nimble.

And an ability callled "nimble" giving a natural armor bonus is counter intuitive. So maybe it should be a dodge bonus? Or an enhancement bonus to natural armor? Or maybe it should just say it stacks with the mutagen AC?

Don't get me wrong, by RAW, you are totally right. They don't stack. The question is just, is this an oversight or RAI.

And there's also the issue of nimble not stating that it works only in mutagenic form. So maybe it doesn't stack, but provides a bonus to natural AC even in the master chymists normal form.

Looks like I misread the entry initially, it's not actually a flat-Dex boost, just a boost to Dex skill/ability checks. My bad.

Don't discount the benefits of a high CMD. In fact, that's probably why the bonus is natural armor typed instead of dodge: dodge would apply to CMD, giving you an eventual +10 to CMD in addition to +5 to AC. That's probably a bit too high for one talent like this. If it was enhancement to natural armor, that would be a free Barkskin, which might also be too powerful as it stacks with your regular mutagen. Making exceptions to how bonuses normally stack seems unnecessary and overly-complicated. It all seems RAI to me.

Agreed about the mutagenic form or mutagen bit, that could use clarification.

[Joesi]

Cerberus Seven wrote:

Forgive me, as I might be missing something obvious here, but why is there any confusion on how this works? The ...natural armor bumps provided by Nimble do not stack with those given by a base mutagen because, at higher levels, the Master Chymist will get a larger bonus to these scores than what the base mutagen would provide.

You didn't explain why it wouldn't stack, only why it could still be useful if it didn't stack.

The biggest problem with that argument that I see is that it if it didn't stack, it should should probably then state that "this ability requires at least 5|6 levels in Master Chymist". That isn't entirely accurate since if someone took a non-dex mutagen, they'd still benefit from the dex bonuses but not the armor, but is more or less the case (since I don't see why someone would choose that only to just get +1 dex checks, no armor boost). Realize that these abilities are in place of discoveries and discoveries are quite powerful. It makes sense that they would stack. Greater/grand mutagen or ANY other ability would be a far better ability to chose than nimble if the nimble bonuses did not stack at nearly any alchemist level, and regardless of which ability is their primary ability that mutagen most often buffs. Maybe not at level 18, but how frequent does that even occur? (level 10 chymist [CL 18])

For the record that was saying 2 things:
1. It's essentially useless without the prefix/warning "requires Mastery chymist level 5|6 (depending on rounding?)"
2. It's not even particularly useful even as a high level chymist compared to other options. This point isn't a perfect reason since there are indeed some terrible feats in this game, but nonetheless they are in a minority.

[Cerberus Seven]

Joesi wrote:

You didn't explain why it wouldn't stack, only why it could still be useful if it didn't stack.

Because even though natural armor bumps don't affect touch AC or CMD, they're still pretty substantial defensive bonuses. Why else would they still price an Amulet of Natural Armor the same, plus per plus, as a Ring of Protection? If they stacked and you took Grand Mutagen for a +6, got +5 from this prestige class eventually, another +5 from a lvl 12+ Barkskin, PLUS whatever they get from Dex and armor, you're seeing your armor class skyrocket. While this prestige class is obviously meant to be on the frontline, some considers for game balance should be given.

Joesi wrote:

For the record that was saying 2 things:

1. It's essentially useless without the prefix/warning "requires Mastery chymist level 5|6 (depending on rounding?)"
2. It's not even particularly useful even as a high level chymist compared to other options. This point isn't a perfect reason since there are indeed some terrible feats in this game, but nonetheless they are in a minority.

I wouldn't call a +2 to initiative, stealth/acrobatics/fly/escape artist skill checks, and CMD worthless. ESPECIALLY CMD, good lord that's an important one if something that's actually good at them happens to try a grapple, trip, or reposition maneuver on you in the midst of its buddies. The application of this advanced mutagen may be a bit less universal in appeal, but then this whole prestige class is clearly channeling the 'Dr. Jekyll / Mister Hyde' theme with a vengeance. Any sneaky and brutal melee alchemist like this will appreciate these bonuses, especially since they stack with things like Burly, Growth Mutagen, and the Greater/Grand mutagens. This may not be the first thing a Master Chymist takes, but if I were building a stealth brute meant to lay down hurt on the front-line, I'd almost certainly take this ability at some point.

[Joesi]

My comment was based on the assumption that it wouldn't stack with the dex bonuses from mutagens, but if you're saying it would stack with the dex mutagen bonus then sure it would still be useful.

Nonetheless, the whole +natural armor thing doesn't really make much sense unless it stacked as well; There's hardly any reason a Chymist wouldn't get greater mutagen and grand mutagens when available, and those increase armor received as well. It makes it so that there's never any time that the ability gives any armor benefit at all assuming the character takes greater and grand mutagen.

In some rare cases, they might not want to take grand mutagen, but even thats iffy, since the only reason they might not want to take it is for the -2 of a mental stat (int) and they might not need the physical stat (str). I would think most DMs would probably allow an alchemist to waive the last +4/-2 bonus and penalty if they didn't want it, so that wouldn't be an issue then.