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Hey all,
Long time DM here (Including RotRL and CotCT) getting a chance in a couple of months time to play Kingmaker. Trying to work out what I wish to play and have something of a personal Dilemma that I hoped DM's and those who have played or read the AP could advise me on without giving to much away.
Currently I am working on a Paladin theme and trying to decide between the Mounted Paladin and a Two Weapon sword and board build. Not looking for Optimized but do want to be effective. We can use anything Core, after that we can pass it by the DM and if it is reasonable I expect we'll be able to use it. The APG may have a better chance of being considered reasonable than 3.5 material.
DM is using a background generator that I am unfamiliar with and haven't seen yet, though I have heard it is reminiscent of the old tables in 2nd ed. Unearthed Arcana. From speaking with the GM I believe that some wiggle room to fit character concept is available.
The background I am currently working up goes something like this:
Heir to a noble/royal house that had the lands taken/stolen/destroyed and only he and maybe a handful of others know his background. (This way if he doesn't become the ruler I have wiggle room without having to retire the character do to his background) I am toying with running him as a southern gentleman in the style of Gone with the Wind.
Really more interested in the Paladin than Cavalier or Fighter as I really would like to take the Paladin out for a spin.
Regardless of my decisions below I plan on taking Leadership.
To my questions.
A) Mounted or 2 Weapon/sword and board. Both are very intriguing to me but I have come to the sad realization that the poor Paladin (sarcasm) just doesn't get the feats to balance both trees. I have also toyed with the thought of taking 2-weap and Imp Shield bash and calling it good then going on with mounted from there but I am afraid that I may just be a feat or two short of where I want to be, when I want to be there.
B) if mounted Horse or do I start horse and try to go for the Stag in the Players Guide? I am thinking a bit more knightly leaning and that being the case I am leaning horse.
B) if two-weap Do I set my sights on the higher 2-weapons and struggle with the high Dex needed for high end 2-weap or do I just take the 15 out of the gate, grab the 2-weap fighting and then concentrate on the shield feats?
C) I have received the message that Survival skill will be important, and the players guide made that pretty clear as well, so if I can pull off 3 or 4 skills per level the Riding thing may impact my skill usage also and require more. Other than Diplomacy and Survival (and of course Handle animal and Ride) am I missing any skills that are obvious no brainers for a paladin?
D) Am I over thinking all of this? Having been a bigworld kind of guy for the last 6 years and many more than that over the last 30 I am wondering if perhaps I need to just wait a while and role with it (pun intended)...
Thanks for any and all input and for the lack of spoilers in advance.
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A-B2) From a character mechanics POV, some of your questions depend on what point build you are using.
If it's a 15 point build and you want to have a good Str and Cha, modest Wis and Con and a very high Dex (2FW specialist) - 5/6 stats, you'll be cutting corners that you'll regret later because you'll be exchanging everything a melee character needs (to hit, damage, HP) for an extra weak off-hand attack. If your build is 15, you can have modest Dex and Int and still be a decent horsey paladin.
If you're into the 20-25 point range, you can probably pull that build off reasonably well but you still suffer with the lack of synergy with having high dex and being able to wear heavy armour.
C) Depends on your allies and whether you opt for a high-priced 2WF build (where you'll most likely need INT as a dump stat). You won't be the expert at everything so if someone else can be the tracker type and you opt to be the Face of the party and a great horseman, you'll be in fine shape.
D) I think roleing with it is a good plan.
The Kingmaker player's guide makes it clear that there will be lots of campouts in this campaign so either of your overall builds could work as long as you don't hamstring yourself into being an overall weak melee character just so you can bash with the shield once or twice a round.
I've been playing a Cavalier in this AP for ten levels now, we're currently at part 4. Both your concepts sounds useful.If you are aiming to be ruler charisma will be really important. I got to use my mount a lot for the first five levels or so, but now we usually rely on teleport and other traveling spells. Two-weapon fighter with a paladin can be really hard to pull off, you will be dependent on a high dex in addition to strength, charisma and constitution. I would drop the two-weapon fighting bit and just go for a switch hitter type build (like I have with my Cavalier to good effect). I mostly go sword and board, but I am also good with the bow and power attack helps when I drop the shield and attack with both hands.
Skill wise you should invest in Perception and Survival. You will be rolling a lot of perception checks and the DC's can often be insanely high. I currently have +18 in perception with my cavalier and regularly fail my perception checks.
Kingmaker is one of the rare APs where a mounted character can do well - lots of outdoors adventuring. I wouldn't pass up the chance to take advantage of it.
Kingmaker is one of the rare APs where a mounted character can do well - lots of outdoors adventuring. I wouldn't pass up the chance to take advantage of it.
You should think so, but I have found that I only have gotten to use my mount in roughly half the combats we have been to, and I can count on one hand the times I have been able to get in a mounted charge, and I have been playing a cavalier for ten levels now. I guess this mostly depends upon how strict your DM is with difficult terrain and such though. My DM has often denied me to ride my horse because the terrain is "unsuitable" for riding, even though rules-wise my horse would only be slowed down. Now I have finally gotten a hold of Horseshoes of a Zephyr, but we mostly teleport and the wizard isn't powerful enough to bring my horse and the entire party at once :(. A paladin can summon his mount so this might prove more useful though.
There are a number of encounters, throughout the AP, where both tactics can shine, but (and I apologize if this is spoiler-ific)
Most major encounters happen in doors
Feel free not to click on the above spoiler. A Paladin will do well in this AP for a number of in game and meta-game reasons.
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I think you've gotten a lot of good mechanical advice, but the most important thing you can do with Kingmaker is your last option--just roll with it. If your DM is up to the challenge, this will be a very open-ended, very personal campaign and you should prepare your character for a living breathing world that involves making a lot of choices that don't involve swords or shields.
I find that my campaign has evolved far beyond the AP in small but enjoyable ways, all based on the actions of the characters. Every time they go off script, I have a unique opportunity to surprise myself as well as them and I really hope you and your DM get to have the same experience.
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Thank you all,
This is exactly the kind of advice (though I didn't pop open that spoiler button and I thank you for the button) and style of advice that I was looking for. As a DM I ran Curse of the Crimson Throne for 2 groups and Rise of the Runelords for one of those groups. so I am (I believe) prepared to roleplay and explore a dynamic story. And once we get going I usually let what has come before and the story adjust the character I play but I like to go in with a guiding force and I think it is time to pull out some of my horsed rider mini's.
I am just about to start playing KM. I have also gone down the Paladin route. The APG appears to have quite a number of feats which will support a Sword and Board approach. So you might want to check those out.
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While the AP is fairly mounted combatant friendly, I would strongly consider playing a small character with a medium sized mount- because there are still dungeons and locations where a large sized mount just isn't going to work. Go with a mounted Gnome or Halfling paladin on a riding dog, you'll be thankful you did :).
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While the AP is fairly mounted combatant friendly, I would strongly consider playing a small character with a medium sized mount- because there are still dungeons and locations where a large sized mount just isn't going to work. Go with a mounted Gnome or Halfling paladin on a riding dog, you'll be thankful you did :).
This is advice that I have given players in my games before, so I completely understand the nature of it. However, in this instant the character's background and the style that I am angling for is a human flavor. I figure i'll have to just suck it up and rely on equipment and basic paladin features when I can't bring the One-Trick Pony along with.
C) Depends on your allies and whether you opt for a high-priced 2WF build (where you'll most likely need INT as a dump stat). You won't be the expert at everything so if someone else can be the tracker type and you opt to be the Face of the party and a great horseman, you'll be in fine shape.
So far the rumored allies consist of a mastermind-style rogue(me), a hexblade and a druid(or summoner) with a few others that are not currently part of our CotCT group. I think most of us are considering some sort of "leadership" be it through feats or hirelings, but important skills will probably be covered by at least one of the other characters.
I'm currently running a Dwarven Paladin(non-mounted/tank) in Brute's RotRL campaign and having seen how my skill points have panned out(11 INT/20-pt build), I suggested he just concentrate on 1 or 2 skills and have the remaining as floaters to pick&choose ranks in other skills as he levels. Even more so if we end up with a 15-pt build.
I've got a sword and board paladin that uses mounted combat. He is the biggest baddest threat. You really can't go wrong with the paladin, you're going to be a swift healing evil slaying warrior of good.
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DM is using a background generator that I am unfamiliar with and haven't seen yet, though I have heard it is reminiscent of the old tables in 2nd ed. Unearthed Arcana. From speaking with the GM I believe that some wiggle room to fit character concept is available.
Aren't you using the Campaign Traits from the Kingmaker Player's Guide?
I would agree that you are fretting too much - think back to the games you ran, were any of the characters that had been created with the help of the player's guide inappropriate?
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I think a paladin of any stripe will do well in this AP. 1) There are a lot of encounters that will be the only encounter or one of two encounters for the day. 2) Most of the significant opponents are evil...especially as things get further into the AP.
I am GMing it presently and the mounted cavalier has been able to use his mount in most of the combats, but probably fewer of the tough combats. The nasty combats have taken place, largely, in places horses cannot go.