I have a player in my campaign who was Wiz 6/Fighter 1 and gained a level. By choosing Eldritch Knight 1, he acquired Diverse Training and then selected Arcane Armor Mastery,since he had Arcane Armor Training previously. Do I understand correctly that the Diverse Training allows him to add his EK level to his arcane level for purposes of qualifying for the feat(ie, 6+1=7 as required)? Thanks for any help.
Not as far as I can tell. Diverse Training works for prerequisites that say "Fighter level X" or "Wizard level X" or similar. Caster level would not be a part of what Diverse Training would work on. However, as soon as he gets his next caster level (EK level 2), he could take Arcane Armor Mastery as his caster level would now be 7.
Not as far as I can tell. Diverse Training works for prerequisites that say "Fighter level X" or "Wizard level X" or similar. Caster level would not be a part of what Diverse Training would work on. However, as soon as he gets his next caster level (EK level 2), he could take Arcane Armor Mastery as his caster level would now be 7.
Except he won't get a feat at level 8. :)
Shoulda taken the Magical Knack Trait...
Not as far as I can tell. Diverse Training works for prerequisites that say "Fighter level X" or "Wizard level X" or similar. Caster level would not be a part of what Diverse Training would work on. However, as soon as he gets his next caster level (EK level 2), he could take Arcane Armor Mastery as his caster level would now be 7.
Note that none of the feats say "Wizard level X", they all say "Caster level X". The obvious reason is that there is more than one type of caster. Read the text for Diverse Training (page 385):
"He also adds his level to any levels in an arcane spellcasting class for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites for feats."
Diverse Training, however, does not allow the character to gain an actual new caster level relative to spellcasting or the number of spells per day. See the Eldritch Knight progress table. Note Diverse Training is gained at level 1 but actually spell casting ability does not go up till level 2.
Based on your explanation above, Diverse Training would be pointless on the caster side as none of the feats specifically state 'Wizard Level X". Whereas the Diverse Training description clearly indicates that it includes spellcasting class as well as fighter.
Note this information is based soley on the base book and does not include information from any expansion books.
Note that none of the feats say "Wizard level X", they all say "Caster level X". The obvious reason is that there is more than one type of caster. Read the text for Diverse Training (page 385):
There are feats that specify "Wizard level X". Spell Mastery, for instance, requires "1st-level Wizard".
While that is the only feat in the Core Rulebook that uses that wording for anything else than Fighter-specific feats, I think the Diverse Training is meant primarily to let the Eldritch Knight take Fighter-specific feats, and they added on the spellcasting class text for completeness' sake.
I stand corrected there is one feat which requires 1st level wizard. However, once again it would be pointless to apply Diverse Training here since an EK must be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells to begin with. Besides, "Wizard X", isn't even in the Diverse Training text.
PFCRB p384-385
Because the road to becoming an eldritch knight
requires both martial prowess and arcane power, eldritch
knights almost always begin their paths as multiclassed
characters, such as fighter/wizards or ranger/sorcerers.
They may be found wherever studies of the arcane are as
prevalent as martial training.Diverse Training: An eldritch knight adds his level
to any levels of fighter he might have for the purpose
of meeting the prerequisites for feats (if he has no
fighter levels, treat his eldritch knight levels as levels
of fighter). He also adds his level to any levels in an
arcane spellcasting class for the purpose of meeting the
prerequisites for feats.
Are and Cold appear to be defining feat prequisits citing "caster level" as actual spellcasting level.
I believe that "caster level" in the feat prequisits is caster class level. It would apply to gaining the Aracane Armor feats as well as the item creation feats.
The point I've been trying communicate is that there is no useful application of Diverse Training on the arcane spell caster side (sorcer/wizard) given Are and Cold's interpretation. There would be no point in referring to arcane caster class in the Diverse Training description at all.
The EKs text describes a fighter/arcane caster hybrid. The Diverse Training text clearly reference both and that it only applies to feat prequisits.
Diverse Training may very well have been intended to work the way you want it to work. I don't think the wording of the ability reflects that intent, if it was meant to. However, you may rule it according to the way you read it. That's perfectly fine, and not overpowered at all (it's only a +1, after all, since the EK gets spellcasting levels at every level except the 1st).
Diverse Training may very well have been intended to work the way you want it to work. I don't think the wording of the ability reflects that intent, if it was meant to. However, you may rule it according to the way you read it. That's perfectly fine, and not overpowered at all (it's only a +1, after all, since the EK gets spellcasting levels at every level except the 1st).
I'm slightly offended by that response. Implying that my position is based upon "the way I want it to work" is incorrect.
Please explain how the wording of the ability reflects your position. Or perhaps how it fits into EK class description?
Don't give up and throw me a bone! I'm all about the debate.
I'm slightly offended by that response.
It wasn't meant to be offensive, although I realize I could have worded my post better. I apologize.
Please explain how the wording of the ability reflects your position.
The text of Diverse Training talks about adding your class levels of EK to the class levels of arcane spellcasting classes in order to qualify for feats. Every other feat/ability/etc that adds to caster level specifically says that it does, while this ability doesn't do that.
It would have been very easy to word this ability by simply adding the word "caster" before "levels in an arcane spellcasting class", so the fact that it wasn't worded that way indicates that it wasn't meant to add to caster level.
Don't give up and throw me a bone! I'm all about the debate.
I simply realized that it wasn't really worth arguing about, since the potential benefit was so small anyway ;)
Edit: While there aren't any Pathfinder feats besides Spell Mastery that requires a specific spellcasting class level yet, there are several feats from WotC's 3.5 books that do. The Advanced Player's Guide has already opened the way for class-specific feats beyond Fighter feats with several that are Monk-specific, which indicates that there might be future feats that are Sorcerer-specific, Wizard-specific or Bard-specific. Diverse Training would work to qualify for those (even if you didn't have a single level in the relevant spellcasting class, since it works for all arcane spellcasting classes).
Imo, some of the feats and spells in the APG have indirectly made the Eldritch Knight viable. Expect more when Ultimate Magic rolls out. =)
The text of Diverse Training talks about adding your class levels of EK to the class levels of arcane spellcasting classes in order to qualify for feats. Every other feat/ability/etc that adds to caster level specifically says that it does, while this ability doesn't do that.
It would have been very easy to word this ability by simply adding the word "caster" before "levels in an arcane spellcasting class", so the fact that it wasn't worded that way indicates that it wasn't meant to add to caster level.
Well that's much better. Thankyou.
Perhaps the next errata will clear up what was intended. However, I believe "caster" may have been intentionally left out to avoid indicating that the EK level actually affects the characters spell casting level with respect to effective spell casting level. Diverse Training clearly only applies to feat prequisits and nothing else.
He also adds his level to any levels in an
arcane spellcasting class for the purpose of meeting the
prerequisites for feats.
Would changing the feat prequisit descriptions to "caster class level" be clearer if it was intended to work the way I suggest?
I do agree that the wording needs some help somewhere else we wouldn't be having this discussion. I also agree that it's not really worth arguing over 8-P
Here's the definition of "Caster Level" per the core rulebook.
Caster Level
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which
for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class
level in the class she’s using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal,
but the caster level you choose must be high enough for
you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent
features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature or other special
ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that
adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster
level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but
also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s
spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel
checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
The first sentence notes that caster level equals class level for most spellcasting classes. I'm not sure that makes it any clearer, but it something to think about.