I have been playing a cleric with Augmented Summoning for a little while now, and I have come to a conclusion. Unless you spend their absolutely highest level spells all the time to summon there is no point.
Now this isn't necessarily a problem except that you only have probably 2 or 3 highest level spells at any given moment, and lets face it you probably want to use them on more useful and faster casting spells like flame strike. So you might spend one of these spell slots on a summoned monster.
Try using a lower level spell to summon a monster? Unless your facing a ton of mooks, you will find that there is a sudden and horrific drop in their capabilities. I saw this first hand between a 6th and a 5th level spell, while using a celestial tiger vs. using a celestial lion. The tiger was bar ally useful with the augmentation as it had little chance to hit a target, but did get two hits before it got dropped by a lesser cyclopes with monk levels. The lion against their lesser cyclopes sorcerer had only to roll a Natural 20 to hit.
So I got three hits on these summoned monsters, two rounds of distraction, which actually was rather useful as one of those rounds would probably meant curtain death to a part member, but really they were not all that threatening even after augmentation.
So I guess ether this sort of focus in spells is not really all that useful or I am doing it wrong. Anyone have any ideas.
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Perhaps the best bet is to change your expectations a bit?
I know we want our summons to be as powerful as the group, but maybe appreciating that three rounds of acting like a speed bump is the equivalent of stunning your opponent for three rounds. If they're not attacking the party, it's making it easier for the rest of the group to do their jobs without worrying about impending deaths. Also don't forget about summoning creatures to use their special abilities (Lantern Archon I'm looking at you).
Maybe if you dropped the level of the summons a bit and let them function as expendable targets of opportunity, you'd find the summon line more useful?
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You just have to use the lower level ones differently. Even ones that could never hit one their own can provide flanking and stacked Aid Another to make sure your front liners hit or to increase their AC. That wouldn't be worth a high level slot but it isn't bad for a low level one- especially if it guarantees your rogue flanking.
They are also good for setting off traps, using special abilities to heal or buff the party, or helping with mobility you don't have (ride one for swim speed or flight).
I have been playing a cleric with Augmented Summoning for a little while now, and I have come to a conclusion. Unless you spend their absolutely highest level spells all the time to summon there is no point.
That's somewhat true, but as everyone else pointed out, sometimes there are special abilities worth using. For instance, a bralani (or even 1d3 mephits) would probably have been more useful than a dire lion in your example.
I have been playing a cleric with Augmented Summoning for a little while now, and I have come to a conclusion. Unless you spend their absolutely highest level spells all the time to summon there is no point.
Now this isn't necessarily a problem except that you only have probably 2 or 3 highest level spells at any given moment, and lets face it you probably want to use them on more useful and faster casting spells like flame strike. So you might spend one of these spell slots on a summoned monster.
Try using a lower level spell to summon a monster? Unless your facing a ton of mooks, you will find that there is a sudden and horrific drop in their capabilities. I saw this first hand between a 6th and a 5th level spell, while using a celestial tiger vs. using a celestial lion. The tiger was bar ally useful with the augmentation as it had little chance to hit a target, but did get two hits before it got dropped by a lesser cyclopes with monk levels. The lion against their lesser cyclopes sorcerer had only to roll a Natural 20 to hit.
So I got three hits on these summoned monsters, two rounds of distraction, which actually was rather useful as one of those rounds would probably meant curtain death to a part member, but really they were not all that threatening even after augmentation.
So I guess ether this sort of focus in spells is not really all that useful or I am doing it wrong. Anyone have any ideas.
All good points. If allowed by your DM a rod of maximize with summon monster III can be incredible at low levels use it to summon 1d4+1(always 5) celestial dogs with max HP;. With your augment summoning they have +4 to hit the DC on aid another is 10. Have all 5 of them summoned around the target of your party fighter or rogue to provide flanking for another +2 and possibly sneak attack and have them aid another to give your party added to hit or AC. Also the level 1 eagle gets three attacks, which should be able to hit some if you use them to flank.
Also large summon creatures are like little moveable walls that take hits so the party fighter doesn't have to.
Last but not least someone mentioned lantern archons. This little guy doesn't look like much, but don't let his size fool you. He has aura of menace which is incredible, DR 10/evil Aid (SLA) at will, and two little light beams that overcome all DR. If you have a bard inspiring courage the bonus counts towards the light beams. so at level 9 if you can get your hands on a Rod of Maximize(the medium version) you can count on 5 of these guys 3x a day busting out like little battle droids aiding each other the first round then full attacking. If you can get them hasted they'll be doing 15 attacks a round as touch attacks destroying absolutely anything even golems.
All good points. If allowed by your DM a rod of maximize with summon monster III can be incredible at low levels use it to summon 1d4+1(always 5) celestial dogs with max HP;.
I'm quite certain that a rod of maximize won't affect their hit points, much like how it won't affect their attack rolls or anything like that.
I'm quite certain that a rod of maximize won't affect their hit points, much like how it won't affect their attack rolls or anything like that.
All good points. If allowed by your DM a rod of maximize with summon monster III can be incredible at low levels use it to summon 1d4+1(always 5) celestial dogs with max HP;.
It will certainly affect how many you get. Whether it affects their HP is a gray area. I would let it, but I could see an argument against it as well. In my mind maximized fireball does max damage, maximized summon has max hp, that is fair. With DR 10 and flight it's really a mute point. Maximized attack rolls is definately a no-go.
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The only situations i can think that summon monster sux are:
- Overpowered campaign, if you use 25 point buy or more, probably anything that challenges the team will obliterate the summon.
DING DING DING I think we have a winner. We do play on the higher level, and we let the players add the advanced template for a tone of exp, but everyone is tough now, except me.
I think this is probably the heart of the problem and that I need to re-focus my character in a slight re-build.
It will certainly affect how many you get. Whether it affects their HP is a gray area. I would let it, but I could see an argument against it as well. In my mind maximized fireball does max damage, maximized summon has max hp, that is fair. With DR 10 and flight it's really a mute point. Maximized attack rolls is definately a no-go.I'm quite certain that a rod of maximize won't affect their hit points, much like how it won't affect their attack rolls or anything like that.
All good points. If allowed by your DM a rod of maximize with summon monster III can be incredible at low levels use it to summon 1d4+1(always 5) celestial dogs with max HP;.
I don't see them as nearly the same thing. Number of summons and the damage of fireball is a direct effect of the spell, mentioned in the spell description. The hit points of the summoned creatures isn't a part of the spell at all - it's merely an effect that stems from it, much like the attack rolls the dogs do. Otherwise, a dog summoned with Empower Spell could likely have more hit points than a dog could even have!
I don't see them as nearly the same thing. Number of summons and the damage of fireball is a direct effect of the spell, mentioned in the spell description. The hit points of the summoned creatures isn't a part of the spell at all - it's merely an effect that stems from it, much like the attack rolls the dogs do. Otherwise, a dog summoned with Empower Spell could likely have more hit points than a dog could even have!
It already can, from augment summoning, the precedent for them coming out stronger than normal is already set. Though you just gave me an idea for an improved augment summoning which applies the advanced template to your summons. Damage and HP would be the same as augment but better DC's, skill checks and saves.
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I have played a summoning cleric and had no problems. In fact sort of ended a Paizo module single handedly using summoning alone.
In the final part of the dungeon and we are attacked. I throw down a couple of summons. In tight quarters and they flank. They wreck havoc on the minions.
I can see into the final room, so drop three summons in there and the summoned critters kill the BBEG even before we get to the room.
Tired of being a heal bot? Summon a critter that heals.
Can't get through an area without disturbing guards, summon something sneaky.
A really good cleric is at its best when not trying to deal damage anyway.
Buff spells are usually much more effective in the long run than damaging spells. And summon spells are just the bomb!
I am very surprised by your feelings that they are under powered. No, the summoned monsters will never melee as hard as a Pc melee class (unless they truly suck) but they offer you more actions around. I also play in a very high powered game...i think calculating how we do stats we would have about 50 point buy.
for instance the celestial Anklosaurus. they come in with 95 (including the hit points from Augment Summoning) compare that to my paladins 104 hitpoints at lvl 9. .. not bad. Also the main attack is a +16 Attack and when smiting does +20 or so points of damage and a DC 26 Stun to boot... Thats not a bad piece to put on the board at all. Though summons similar to this are hard to find and rare for the levels they offer one thing you cant deny. More actions. you as a player now have 95 disposable hitpoints on the board to soak up damage for you and the other pc's that will usually get caught in your healing so maybe an extra 40 more give or take. Thats hp you dont have to heal on other people...thats huge. You have to adjust your expectations of what you believe a summon can do, cause frankly they will never do anyhting close to what a similarly leveled paladin or fighter will do.
Another thing you should look at summons for, they let you add to a combat for multiple rounds with out having to burn spells every round. When I was playing my Wizard Summoner, I was able to summon a monster and just use that for a couple of rounds, making sure I minimized the spells I had to use per combat.
I DO like the idea of a feat allowing you to add the Advanced or giant template to a summon spell... they need love summoners... there is only 1 feat and its a nice 1-9 spell progression.
The only situations i can think that summon monster sux are:
- Overpowered campaign, if you use 25 point buy or more, probably anything that challenges the team will obliterate the summon.
DING DING DING I think we have a winner. We do play on the higher level, and we let the players add the advanced template for a tone of exp, but everyone is tough now, except me.
I think this is probably the heart of the problem and that I need to re-focus my character in a slight re-build.
I believe that the other points here deserve consideration before you "re-specc" your character. Summoning can work and work well ...