Now if I remember correctly from 3.5 is that Flurry of Blows was dependent not on a Monk's level but rather his BAB. So technically all you had to do was have the ability and then you could dip into Fighter or something.
However, the wording is different in Pathfinder and so I am wondering if this is true any more. If you can still take one dip in Monk and the rest fighter then you could create one hell of an archer.
If what I suggested is true then I could imagine a build like this.
1 Monk Zen Archer/ 11 Fighter / 1 Sorcerer/ 7 Arcane Archer
Now this would mean that with a full action this build at level 20 could fire 7 arrows in a row, all of them enhanced, have all of them do burst damage and in addition be able to have 2 levels of weapons training in them as well as be able to invest at least 11 combat fighter feats into using bows. This is of course if my inquiry is correct.
So is my dream of a super archer possible or do I have to end up going with this build?
12 Monk Zen Archer/ 1 Sorcerer / 7 Arcane Archer
Which is a very good build as well.
PF Flurry goes off your Monk level.
OK that is what I thought. Oh well.
Still, 12 Monk Zen Archer/ 1 Sorcerer / 7 Arcane Archer is a very good build IMHO. Especially if you throw in a belt of battle and the feat Heroic Surge.
Basically in the first build you'd get one extra attack (with an unarmed strike or monk weapon, ie. shuriken) using a full attack action and all attacks would suffer a -1 penalty.
In the 2nd build you'd get two extra attacks and all attacks would get +1 bonus.
Basically in the first build you'd get one extra attack (with an unarmed strike or monk weapon, ie. shuriken) using a full attack action and all attacks would suffer a -1 penalty.
In the 2nd build you'd get two extra attacks and all attacks would get +1 bonus.
Well beside the point that build couldn't be done because Flurry doesn't work off of BAB anymore. However, if it were possibly you are also forgetting about the feats that only fighters can use. Now of course for it to be really effective you would need a 12th level fighter so a 21 levels are needed. Imagine Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, and weapons training 1 and 2.
This combo would give you a bonus to hit +9 to hit with every shot and each shot would do an additional +6 damage. This would be on top of the stuff from Arcane Archer. You use a composite long bow Type 4 and you could get an additional +4 to damage _(with 18 strength). In addition to just those that would leave at least 8 more feats to play with. Then you drop on Point-Blank shot for a +1 to attack, Precise shot, Improved Precise shot, and Pinpoint targeting. Not only would I eliminate penalties but I would have a total of +10 to hit and to damage and this is all before any magic items such as bows, items of str/dex, bracers of archery and so on. Lastly, Penetrating Strike would be a great pick as well because shots fired would then ignore DR.
I find it is better to hit every single time and do damage then to waste half my arrows and possibly have some of the damage ignored.
Sadly though I can't do this kind of build because of what was mentioned before hand. However I would be happy with 12 Monk Zen Archer/ 1 Sorcerer / 7 Arcane Archer or 16 Monk Zen Archer/ 1 Sorcerer / 3 Arcane Archer which would account for even more arrows fired that are elementally charged
Hey how high can composite bows get up to, in purposes of taking advantage of a high strength bonus?
Yeah, Zen Archer is rapidly becoming my top 5 archetype. Monks that make sense, who would have thought :)
Ya I like it to but I also like all the crazy combos. Like Drunken Monk of the Four Winds which at level 20 you become the immortal drunk.
Like Drunken Monk of the Four Winds which at level 20 you become the immortal drunk.
...and you name it Dionysos, or Bacchus ;-)
PF Flurry goes off your Monk level.
You BAB is your BAB, Flurry only transforms the 3/4 BAB from Monk into a 1/1. A high enough BAB gives additional attacks.
Your additional attacks (on top of those offered by your BAB) depend on your monk levels: at level 1, you gain one (as TWF); at level 8, a second (as Improved TWF); at level 15, a third (as Greater TWF)If your intent is to cram as many fighter levels as possible while still gaining the flurry-related additional attacks, you could either stay with Monk 1, or stop after level 8 (so that you can still get 4 levels of fighter).
Monk 1/Fighter 11 flurrying: +12/+12/+7/+2
Monk 8/Fighter 4 flurrying: +12/+12/+7/+7/+2
I don't have the APG, so I'll default the Zen Archer considerations to those who know better:
- While flurrying, do they gain the additional attacks at the same rate?
- Can they add these attacks on top of those gained with Rapid Shot and Manyshot? (if yes, that's +10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0/+0 for the M8F4)
It doesn't matter much for the purpose of this thread, but the 3.5 flurry did not work off BAB either. Monks start out getting one extra attack at first level and when the monk reaches 11th level they get a second extra attack.
Regardless the Zen Archer monk looks like a lot of fun, can't wait to get my copy of APG.
Yes the Zen Archer gains Flurry at the same rate and only Zen Archers can flurry with bows and they can only flurry with bows.
No you can't used Rapid Shot and Manyshot in Combo with flurry.
I do think that you could use a Elven double bow with it though to get an extra shot off.
Lastly, there is an old enchantment from 3.5 that you can put on a bow that splits an arrow in two when fired from the bow. You could fire like 16 shots in a round.
OK, I was looking close at my build and since I can't effect flurry of blows with levels of fighter then this is the way to go.
16 Monk Zen Archer/ 1 Sorcerer / 3 Arcane Archer: This is if you are not a crit monkey
As soon as you make the BAB requirement take the 1 level of sorcerer and then take at least 3 levels of Arcane Archer. Those 3 levels of Arcane Archer makes any arrow you fire magical giving it a +1 to attack and damage and in addition the arrow would have frost, shock or flame attached to it.
Zen Archers gain a lot of bonus feats normal allowed only for fighters.
By level six I pick these bonus feats: Point-Blank shot, Combat Reflexes, Dodge
The rest of you bonus feats I pick: Shot on the run and improved critical
Point of interest Class abilities: Way of the bow is basically weapon specialization so a +2 to attack and damage. Zen Archery you can use your wisdom bonus for your attack bonus.
Now lets say this build the character is using a composite long bow type 4 and has 18 Strength, 18 Dex and a Wisdom of 24 (assuming all ability score raises went into that)
The Zen Arcane Archer with all skill and ability bonuses would have a bow flurry that looked like this at a range of 30 feet.
+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10 and each arrow would do 1d8+5 and 1d6 elemental damage.
Actually, acording to the conversion guide Flurry of Blows does go off your monk level+BAB from other classes, it is just poorly worded. A clearer description is found in the conversion guide and this was confirmed by Jason Bulmahn. The relevent text and Jasons reply is over HERE on Enworld.
Actually, acording to the conversion guide Flurry of Blows does go off your monk level+BAB from other classes, it is just poorly worded. A clearer description is found in the conversion guide and this was confirmed by Jason Bulmahn. The relevent text and Jasons reply is over HERE on Enworld.
OK, after reading both descriptions again I think I understand the mystery. Both BAB and Monk levels do apply to flurry of blows. Where the monk levels apply is in the simulation of Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain all the way up to Greater Two Weapon fighting.
So I see it like this.
Monk 1/ Fighter 11(with the feats Two-weapon fighting, improved Two-weapon fighting, and Greater Two-weapon fighting) can flurry the same number of attacks as a 15th level Monk but has a better chance to hit at later levels.
Now this makes a lot of sense to me and it seems that you actually come out ahead with the Monk/fighter combo because you hit easier, hit more earlier, get way more feats and bonuses and match the flurry of blows in the end with a high level monk.
However, the hitch is I don't think you could apply the actual two-weapon fighting chain feats to a Zen Archer because the virtual versions of these feats apply directly to the Zen Archer Flurry. Unless I am wrong.
Is the way I am seeing this look correct or did I make an error somewhere?
No you can't used Rapid Shot and Manyshot in Combo with flurry.
Is it actually written in the Zen Archer's description?
Monk 1/ Fighter 11(with the feats Two-weapon fighting, improved Two-weapon fighting, and Greater Two-weapon fighting) can flurry the same number of attacks as a 15th level Monk but has a better chance to hit at later levels.Now this makes a lot of sense to me and it seems that you actually come out ahead with the Monk/fighter combo because you hit easier, hit more earlier, get way more feats and bonuses and match the flurry of blows in the end with a high level monk.
By "better change to hit" I imagine that you think about Weapon Training (unarmed), right? Because a flurrying Monk has a BAB as high as if he was a Fighter.
And I don't know if the actual feats give you more attacks in a Flurry.
I just reread the feats, and there's something strange in the wording. TWF lessens penalties by 2. Does that imply that the monk's flurry penalties get lessened? Or saying that "Flurrying is like using TWF" implies that you can't apply the actual feat on top?
You also realize that you need Dex 19 for the Greater TWF?
However, the hitch is I don't think you could apply the actual two-weapon fighting chain feats to a Zen Archer because the virtual versions of these feats apply directly to the Zen Archer Flurry. Unless I am wrong.
I think you are correct in that TWF doesn't apply to the bow. Zen Archer's Flurry is a specific case, and the actual feats don't translate into more attacks with the bow.
Is it actually written in the Zen Archer's description?
Yeah, it is specifically mentioned.
And I don't know if the actual feats give you more attacks in a Flurry.
I just reread the feats, and there's something strange in the wording. TWF lessens penalties by 2. Does that imply that the monk's flurry penalties get lessened? Or saying that "Flurrying is like using TWF" implies that you can't apply the actual feat on top?You also realize that you need Dex 19 for the Greater TWF?
Well after the discussion I had taken a super close look at the Flurry ability and it allows extra attacks because of two factors. The first factor is BAB or the Monks level which acts as the BAB. The rest of the description states that the Monk gains the virtual equivalents of the feats that I described and this is where he gets all of his other attacks that stack on his BAB+1. Those feats on a normal fighter would basically give a fighter two extra attacks when use two weapons and since the flurry ability only gives you 1 extra attack on top of your full BAB (or monk level equivalent) then at level 20 that adds up to 7 attacks which is the full flurry attack of a 20th level Monk.
Personally, I think Pazio didn't change Flurry enough because it makes players want to abuse the system and take levels of fighters in order to get a higher attack and more feats. It really throws verisimilitude right out of the window unless the player is really good at righting backgrounds.
Also yes I am aware that Greater TWF requires a 19 dex but if you are trying to do these kind of builds and do not have a high dex then something is wrong.