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In my post, Adventure Paths. The Good, Bad, and What were they thinking?!? (Spoilers) which I cross-posted over at EN World and rpg.net, SD seems to be mentioned as fans' least favorite AP. (Kingmaker and Rise of the Runelords were frequently mentioned as most favorite.)
However, SD had to have SOME fans. Anyone run and, most importantly, enjoy the AP? And why?
In my post, Adventure Paths. The Good, Bad, and What were they thinking?!? (Spoilers) which I cross-posted over at EN World and rpg.net, SD seems to be mentioned as fans' least favorite AP. (Kingmaker and Rise of the Runelords were frequently mentioned as most favorite.)
However, SD had to have SOME fans. Anyone run and, most importantly, enjoy the AP? And why?
Well..this is my first experience as a GM, but my players seem to thus far be enjoying the SD AP. Granted, we have only just finished CotV and we haven't really gotten to the places where people start not caring for it, but...still. They're having fun, and so am I.
It's the first experience with Pathfinder for everyone involved and it's been challenging enough thus far to keep them on their toes with the modifications I've been making to it. I've only read the very beginning of Armageddon Echo and haven't gotten further into it than that at all, and it seems like most people are more unimpressed with the second half of the AP, so I guess I'll have to see what happens from there.
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I enjoyed the first two chapters, as the AP provided lots of details on Riddleport, and how to have PCs own an inn, etc. It really grounded the character in the setting. However Chapter 3 through 6 catapults the PCs all around the globe, mainly in elf or drow dominated lands, and the ties to Riddleport are completely severed or disregarded.
So in essence, you have a character creation process that focuses on Riddleport/humans, whereas there should have been more elven elements to it, right off the bat. It would have been better if the character creation process would have focused on creating a party of elf commandos trying to infiltrate and blend into Riddleport to ferret out that nasty drow female dog. Doing it the "elven way", with a "base of ops" focus on Kyonin, would have made for a long-term player investment. Right now, the Riddleport heroes really don't care too much about the story as they're so far away from their beloved Riddleport and can never enjoy the spoils of being "heroes." (i.e. everytime they defeat a major baddie, the spoils are spent in elf or drow lands, and they remain unimportant to everyone, be they human, elf or drow).
That, plus the fact that they are just plain used by the Kyonin elves for like half of the AP...
Its funny everyone says how much they liked riddle ports most of my players want to figure out a way to get out of the "Wreched Hive of Scum and Villiany". But I did tell players to make good characters so maybe thats it.
As a DM reading it and Conveting it all to Pathfinder I really liked it.
I haven't run it (having focused mostly on Shackled City, Against the Giants, and Council of Thieves over the last few years), but of all of the Paizo APs, it's the one that I remember best from my reading. And not in a bad way at all. Now, maybe my interest was heightened because I was working on a conversion of D1-3 to 3.5 at the time and the drow/underground aspect really appealed to me. But I thought it read as good as most of the rest of them.
I liked many of the individual adventures; some of them are very good. Children of the Void may be the best, but I also enjoyed Shadow in the Sky, Endless Night and Descent into Midnight a lot.
The problem is that there are some key places where it is unlikely that the characters would actually continue the storyline as written, due to their treatment by various NPCs. Primarily this is the case in The Armageddon Echo ("we elves like to be left alone to mind our own business and we don't like outsiders being here.. oh, by the way, would you mind helping us in our war and then go on a suicidal-sounding infiltration mission for us?") and in A Memory of Darkness ("I am the only friend you'll find among the elves.. your reward is to be tossed in prison").
It is certainly possible to turn the AP into an enjoyable one, but those two plot points certainly need some work to function well.
We haven't gotten to A Memory of Darkness, though I do anticipate making some substantial changes to that part, but my players enjoyed the heck out of The Armageddon Echo.
My players and I just finished this adventure path. Like most people I think the pc's enjoyed the Riddleport section the most but the rest of the AP was enjoyable for them as well. One thing I had a problem with was it was a little too combat heavy for my taste, and I am not one of those people who prefer role-playing over combat either. I just like a little role-playing at the very least. But alas that could have been my fault.
I do think SD has taken a brunt of the hits for AP criticism and some of it may be more bandwagon than heartfelt bile. For me it just required too much reworking in order for me to have run the AP, and I already get the stern eye of "why are you up at 2am on a Wednesday" from my wife for my typical preparation routine.
That being said I really wish I had the free time because there are some fantastic elements to these adventures. I have to remind myself that it was during SD that a lot of the "holy hell are we really going to defy the titans of Hasbro and keep this mini revolution going?!" action was going on at Paizo so James et al probably had less time to lace up story progression on SD.
I like drow, and I like crazy space monsters, and I like Riddleport. Someday I hope to pull my SD books out of my archival storage closet give it a deep tissue massage and unload the destruction on some unwitting players.
Well, considering my group finished the SDAP last night here is my 10 cents.
In an older SDAP post I remember a comment about SDAP being an "altruistic good" campaign, and our group struggled in the later stages of the campaign (ie once we left Riddleport) as we attempted to define our reasoning for wanting to risk life and limb to divert the coming catastrophe. If this was the authors intent, then he was very successful with our group.
Perhaps we as players and DM's have become to engrossed in the seamless storyline. I can't help but thiniking that perhaps, the AP's intent was to put the PC's in the exact situation which it delivers, that I and others think is this AP's greatest falicy. At the beginning of chapther III, and for the duration of the AP the PC's leave their home, unknowingly never to return. They travel half way around and under the known world to battle a foe, on behalf of an ungrateful nation of contemptuous people whom actually go out of their way to hinder the PC's from saving them from a global catastrophe that they themselves allowed to fester through inaction, for the second time in their history.
So, like our group each PC must find his own motivation for pursuing the overall campaign goal. In otherword's the story doesnt railroad you into a motivation for stopping the BBEBG you must do so on your own.
That said, I otherwise enjoyed the entire storyline, unique opportunities, tactical and political situations this AP offered. It took us a little over a years playing (we strive for an every Friday game night)and I honestly looked forward to emersing myself into Thoral each time.
Comparing it to the other AP I have DM (Shackled City, Age of Worms, Rise of the Rune Lords) and played in (Savage Tide currently unfinsihed). I rate it their equal, as each of those also had their own hurdles as well.
I think this adventure is pretty cool.
You know I'm not entirely sure why this adventure gets so much flack. I'm DM'ing this at the moment and it's the first time I've DM'ed and we are in the last chapter of Armageddon Echo and it's going pretty well.
I think the thing that bothers me is everyone's opinion that about the so called ungrateful nation, they are in political unrest Moderates vs the extremists. Also it's part of the hubris of it that there are those in denial that something big an bad is going to happen. Hell find some info on the Azlant empire in the Pathfinder history they did the same thing and got wiped out.
The big thing is the PC's originally think the plot only involves Riddleport and then it turns in to it involving the whole world. It's supposed to be about wonder and exploring new places then turning into urgency to stop a wide reaching evil plot. Becoming a possible do or die situation.
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I've read it and enjoyed reading but I never really jumped at running it because my players aren't really aware of the history of the game, so the whole 'awesome new take on iconic villains' excitement won't be there for them.
After reading other GMs concerns my main thought was to invent some incredibly loveable and supportive Elven NPCs that my players could love. My current idea is to give Kyonin a bohemian quarter full of positive, artsy, d.i.y. make-do-and-mend elves who help them out in small ways - the friendly face of elvenkind and the one that PCs might consider worth fighting for.
However, I'm really liking Purple Dragon Kinght's 'Elven Black Ops' approach - maybe musketeer it up (they are the queens secret army and don't realise anyone else is watching for drow in Riddleport, cue confusion at first, then duelling in the streets of kyonin - plus the PCs would understand/sympathise with the queen's politicking).
In Second Darkness, the parts are greater than the sum of the whole. I adore the tropetastic qualities.
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However, I'm really liking Purple Dragon Kinght's 'Elven Black Ops' approach - maybe musketeer it up (they are the queens secret army and don't realise anyone else is watching for drow in Riddleport, cue confusion at first, then duelling in the streets of kyonin - plus the PCs would understand/sympathise with the queen's politicking).
That's exactly what i did after my human fighter level 12 died. i made an elven holy warrior in direct service of the queen. that, to me, became a credible character to play within the context of the story. there's no way i was bringing my human character back from the dead, as i had already grown weary of the 'non-elves led by the nose' plot device.
I ran this one all the way through, and it was fantastic. Better role-playing throughout from my group (helped by a nice stable group).
I really think it *plays* so much better than it might read (read intending to play, not read for the enjoyment). Parts that I was worried wouldn't go over well (#4 & #5) turned about to be the best in a lot of ways, especially #4, and the finish was kick ass as well.
If your group *hates* railroads... maybe it wouldn't work, I don't know. You should definitely add at least one return trip to Riddleport (after #3), to tie things up and remind them what they fight for. Other than that, it is what it is, and it is not a sandbox game after the first two.
I highly recommend it, as long as you think it fits your group's personality (esp. re: #4).
We're enjoying it so far. We're just finishing up Armegedon Echo.
My group is more of a mercenary type group, and hasn't really had a problem with the "elven snobbery". In fact, they see it as amusing. They know they are being used by the elves, but have been enjoying the conflict so far.
Of course, they didn't really care much about Riddleport. I think they were a little grateful to be summoned to Crying Leaf.
First off, I enjoyed reading the Second Darkness Adventure Path. It has a nice overall plot, per se, that is a good mix of adventure and conspiracy thriller. I am particularly fond of Endless Night, for the roleplaying opportunities it offers to both Storytellers and Players.
That being said, I DO recognise where and why others can find fault and flaws with this particular adventure path. To be honest, it can come across as a railroad at times (particularly towards the latter adventures) and sometimes it does seem to throw away a bit of logic and common sense, if observed primarily from a logical and devoid-of-empathy point of view. Of course, such a point of view is not wrong and it is understandable, even if I do have to wonder why such an individual is an adventurer in the first place. After all, being an adventurer is like being in a dating relationship with Death. She does not have to come after you, YOU will show up on her front porch sooner or later. ;)
However, you have to make adjustments of the adventure to suit the needs of the players and your own. It is part of your responsibilities as a Storyteller, same way as it is part of your Players' responsibilities to compromise with you (by playing a different character instead of the barbarian psychopath he wants to sink his teeth into). That is why with the adventure paths, I wait until it is completed before attempting to run it. I make the necessary modifications to ensure (a) there is some challenges to the players' characters and (b) the story will make them WANT to continue with the adventure instead of quoting Eric Cartman and leaving the table. More often then not, the amount of changes to the storyline I do is minimal. It's generally the villians I have to change in some fashion. :/
Now, what I did with the Second Darkness adventure path is that I did not run the whole thing from beginning to end. Instead, I took the overall storyline and adapted it to my campaign, starting the story with the Armageddon Echo instead. The previous adventures were events that happened in the background, completed by other npcs (who, alas, perished afterwards). All of the players' characters are elves. Suddenly, instead of possibly feeling like second class citizens in regards to some of the npcs, they're viewed as potential saviours. This gave the story more emotion to it and the players felt a stronger desire to succeed. Essentially, I made it personal for the characters.
I will admit that because my campaign setting is the Forgotten Realms, it makes it much easier to actually run this adventure path. The very history of the Realms tend to suggest a higher than normal number of globally-scarring events that kills a HELL OF A LOT of people in conjunction with laying waste to the environment. The Crown Wars are ample evidence that if the elves (regardless of exact subrace) want to throw down the kid gloves, it's time to either stop them or GTFO to a another crystal sphere. It's a nice little FYI, ;)
CB out.
My group is four books in and enjoying themselves. I'm also having fun, though I think the AP holds more frustration for me a DM than it would as a player for one main reason: poor editing.
I've found more mistakes in this AP than in any other Paizo product I've run; sometimes I think it has more mistakes than all the other Paizo product I own collectively. Screwy statblocks, hidden info that is important to know prior to the encounter, and why-oh-why do I not have a key on the House Vonnarc map to tell me which doors are opened by what keys?! I've had to do a lot more legwork to keep myself straight than I'm used to.
My group is four books in and enjoying themselves. I'm also having fun, though I think the AP holds more frustration for me a DM than it would as a player for one main reason: poor editing.
I've found more mistakes in this AP than in any other Paizo product I've run; sometimes I think it has more mistakes than all the other Paizo product I own collectively. Screwy statblocks, hidden info that is important to know prior to the encounter, and why-oh-why do I not have a key on the House Vonnarc map to tell me which doors are opened by what keys?! I've had to do a lot more legwork to keep myself straight than I'm used to.
My DM complained about this quite often as well.
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Thanks to a *lot* of legwork on the part of our DM, the final chapters of the AP seem to be going pretty smoothly. He's spent quite a bit of time rebuilding monsters and named enemies to fit into PRPG, which has prevented a lot of down time at the table.
Plot-wise, all of the players have noted the passive-agressive BS that the elves put our characters through, but thanks to Elves of Golarion, we're at least able to understand why they act like they do in the later adventures.
All in all, I've really enjoyed the campaign and it's been a fun game. The aftermath should be interesting even if we do manage to save the world. :)
I'm not too familiar with Second Darkness yet, I have just recently finished running my group thru Rise of the Runelords and intend to start SD in the next few weeks. Oddly though, just from reading the books, I'm more excited about the stories after the party leaves Riddleport than the first two. (Although the tower scene in Children of the Void looks epic!)
I understand where players could be frustrated in the later books. I did luck out in that one of my players is making an elf, of the non-forlorn variety, but the rest are humans. I personally plan to play up the two sides of elven kind, the Progressives and the Traditionalists. Still, in the end, I think wanting to save the world from possible global destruction gives them motivation to put aside their problems and work towards the greater good.
As for railroading, I've never had a problem with it. True, players want the illusion that they can go anywhere and do anything. And if in your campaign they can then that's great! I've always liked to instill a feeling that the world doesn't wait for them. If they drag their feet then there will be consequences...
P.S.: I also wonder how much it's popular to hate elves has to do with Second Darkness' poor reception. I've never really understood the elf-hate thing, but that debate's been done to death... and re-animated... and done to undeath... so lets not start it again. I'm just pointing it out.
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I'm not too familiar with Second Darkness yet, I have just recently finished running my group through Rise of the Runelords and intend to start SD in the next few weeks. Oddly though, just from reading the books, I'm more excited about the stories after the party leaves Riddleport than the first two. (Although the tower scene in Children of the Void looks epic!)
One of the big errors was making Riddleport too interesting. Players wanted to stay there and have more adventures there, but the adventure path didn't stick around.
Another error was to start the AP with a vibe of "you can be scuzzy folks because you're starting in a piraty town, but half-way through the AP you need to become good guys." We should have pushed the "You should play nice characters who are eager to leave Riddleport" and should have made Riddleport less "fun" of a place to live, perhaps.
And the penultimate adventure was WAY too railroady. It could have benefited TREMENDOUSLY from another few weeks in development and/or rewriting.
And while I still really like the element of disguise your PCs as drow for part 4, and think that adventure is one of the most interesting ones we've done... we probably should have made a few more concessions toward lawful characters and how awkward they'd feel toward becoming what basically amounts to spies. I think a single sidebar that effectively would have said: "It's okay to be spies in a chaotic evil society even if you're a lawful character" would have done it.
And finally, we were hoping that by returning to the original super-evil version of drow that we could recapture the magic of drow as bad guys... but I fear that too many years of gamers assuming all drow wield scimitars and have angst on the surface world might make that impossible.
All that said... I still quite like Second Darkness; it's certainly not my least favorite AP. And no, I'm not going to call out my least favorite one! :)
You can take a lot of advice from what Paizo's Creative Director thinks would improve Second Darkness.
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I really, really wanted to enjoy SD and I really do love several points in the AP, in particular Children of the Void is an excellent adventure.
But the weak metaplot and craptasticular Memory of Darkness pretty much prevent me from running this AP, as it would require far too much work to reshape it into something that I and my players will enjoy.
Thanks for the info GeraintElberion! I'm sure I can work in the ideas and hope I can make things fun and enjoyable for everyone. Most of my PC's are just passing thru the city, or have come from far and wide for the turnament.
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My group loved it. It presented some challenges during the running of it, but all in all, it was a very satisfying adventure. We played it from start to finish and never lost interest. We also had more character deaths during this adventure (11 in all) than we had ever had before.
We kicked it off by actually having the Gold Goblin Tournament with games and "authentic" food. The island part of the adventure was scary and very exciting. The alien nature of the akatas had everyone spooked and baffled. Celwynvian was a challenge which I solved by producing a war map with red and white pins showing the outcomes of the skimishes between the drow and the elves. My players loved going to work for the drow. I gave them calendars to track their progression in drow society. I occasionally roleplayed some of their assignments with them just to build the tension.
I used the set piece during the escape from the Underdark. The players hated Queen Telandia and never trusted the elves so that immediately believed everything Quilandra told them. One player ended up in a romantic relationship with her and the betrayal when they arrived at the site of the Council was painful. It was a real challenge to roleplay the council meeting with 4 NPCs arguing with each other. I envisioned various actors in the roles and did my best impressions. It was actually great fun. Finally, the big finish was great. I imagined the end of Star Wars when the heroes got their medallions from Princess Leia. You could almost hear the crowds cheering for them.
The whole thing took about 8 months, playing almost every Saturday evening. Second Darkness really sold me on the Adventure Path concept.
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I am running SD and my group just finished part 3 after about a year. We only play once or twice a month. So far everyone is having fun. I would say the weakness of SD is the transition from the first 2 adventures to the rest of the AP. My players made PC's fit for Riddleport. Some do gooders some ambiguous types but all looking forward to adventuring in a kind of slum/pirate environment. Then after two adventures you leave never to return and your pirate/ghetto backgrounds, traits, etc. are just about thrown away.
That being said, most of us are in our 40's and the players now sense where things are going and are excited to once again be descending into the earth to take on the Drow. For us I think that will make it all work as we all have great memories of those 1ED adentures. Plus, my characters are not bothered by helping the snobby elves. After all another earthfall is going to likely kill the PC's as well.
