Looking at a Master Chymist build for kingmaker
at the moment looking at using a half race or human, 25pt
STR18
DEX14
CON14
INT16
WIS8
CHA7
Now I'm fairly happy that 8 level of Alchemist seems to be a good number before going into Master Chymist, you get that 4th discovery and the extra 3rd level extract.
The Ferral Mutagen seems a pretty solid early level power 3 full BAB attacks + STR mod + power attack ... yes please.
and then from there 10 levels of master chymist with the possibility of taking additional discoveries using the extra discovery feat to round out the versatility. since the extra BAB makes better use of fastbombs and the bomb damage keeps going with Chymist.
However I've been toying with adding a 1-2 levels of barbarian mainly for rage, but also partly for armor and weapon profs too since 3 natural attacks dies off at higher levels even with feats.
But it feels like I might be shooting myself in the foot for a mere +4STR bonus
although 26 Strength at 3rd level with 3 full BAB attacks and power attack
+9attk 1d8+10dmg +9attk 1d6+10dmg +9attk 1d6+10dmg
a second level of barb and you get access to rage powers and the extra rage power feat so choosing power that don't rely on barb level could be very nice.
but then that puts -2 on alchemist level add that to the -3 from Chymist and you -5 casting and miss out on 6th level alchy spells which stops you getting some of the advanced mutagens.
Anyway thats what I can see but I'd be interested in perhaps what I'm not seeing and what trying to add barb is really going to cost mid to high levels.
Would also be interested to know if barb can be fit when exactly to take it. perhaps even at 1st level ?
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However I've been toying with adding a 1-2 levels of barbarian mainly for rage, but also partly for armor and weapon profs too since 3 natural attacks dies off at higher levels even with feats.
Not so much, brutality pretty much creams any improvements better weapons could buy you and I doubt you will be able to benefit from medium armor with greater mutagen going on.
Ugh! Please say you've done something about your will save. This is just begging for trouble.STR18
DEX14
CON14
INT16
WIS8
CHA7
hehehe yeah, that was in the back of my mind, a trait could help with a +1 will, rage gives a +2 will during most times when I'd be required to make will saves.
there's also a dual mind ability in chymist that gives another +2 will saves and lets you reroll a failed save the next round since your split personality gives you 2 minds
so I figure I'd be no worse than any other poor will save charcter
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Ugh! Please say you've done something about your will save. This is just begging for trouble.STR18
DEX14
CON14
INT16
WIS8
CHA7
I was more disgusted by the fact that he went with not only 1 but 2 dump stats to try to optimize a little harder... I sure hope this guy never has to UMD or do anything social ever. Because he is going to have a have one hell of a hard time doing anything other than full attacking.
But seriously if you want my advice it is to take one point out of strength and bring your wisdom up to 12. Seriously, taking that one point drop for 2 extra to your will save is going to SAVE you chemist so many times from getting knocked out of the fight or worse when a spellcaster shows up.
However I've been toying with adding a 1-2 levels of barbarian mainly for rage, but also partly for armor and weapon profs too since 3 natural attacks dies off at higher levels even with feats.Not so much, brutality pretty much creams any improvements better weapons could buy you and I doubt you will be able to benefit from medium armor with greater mutagen going on.
I guess that +2-6 damage is given you +6-18 damage during a full attack.
and 3 attacks at full BAB vs 4 attacks at 0/-5/-10/-15 is statistically probably going to net more hit and thus more damage.
My brain is still stuck on the ole addage that multiple BAB attacks will always surpass fixed natural attacks.
as for improving the natural attacks
I'm seeing amulet of mighty fists as a staple item
Eldrich Claws Feat, for magic/silver vs DR
Improved Natural Attack to up the base die damage (although you'd need to spend 2 feats improving both attacks)
and I Chymist also has an advanced mutagen to up the base die on the 3 attacks as well, which I assume would stack with improved natural attack
And maybe carry an admantium and cold iron 2h spear would also be useful, although in sitaution where that might be needed the bombs could probably do the work being an Su power.
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I guess that +2-6 damage is given you +6-18 damage during a full attack.
and 3 attacks at full BAB vs 4 attacks at 0/-5/-10/-15 is statistically probably going to net more hit and thus more damage.
My brain is still stuck on the ole addage that multiple BAB attacks will always surpass fixed natural attacks.as for improving the natural attacks
I'm seeing amulet of mighty fists as a staple item
Eldrich Claws Feat, for magic/silver vs DR
Improved Natural Attack to up the base die damage (although you'd need to spend 2 feats improving both attacks)
and I Chymist also has an advanced mutagen to up the base die on the 3 attacks as well, which I assume would stack with improved natural attackAnd maybe carry an admantium and cold iron 2h spear would also be useful, although in sitaution where that might be needed the bombs could probably do the work being an Su power.
Have you thought about choosing a race that has a natural attack already with it? Like Half-Orc with the alternate bite, or maybe a Tengu with his beak attack? Tengu also has the benefit of its swordtraining feature.
Ugh! Please say you've done something about your will save. This is just begging for trouble.STR18
DEX14
CON14
INT16
WIS8
CHA7I was more disgusted by the fact that he went with not only 1 but 2 dump stats to try to optimize a little harder... I sure hope this guy never has to UMD or do anything social ever. Because he is going to have a have one hell of a hard time doing anything other than full attacking.
But seriously if you want my advice it is to take one point out of strength and bring your wisdom up to 12. Seriously, taking that one point drop for 2 extra to your will save is going to SAVE you chemist so many times from getting knocked out of the fight or worse when a spellcaster shows up.
actually your right , where's my head. I forgot all about leaving one odd attribute to cover with the bonus attributes.
and the reason I'm going hard on the optimise is becuase I wan't to do alot of posion crafting from monsters we've killed to coat my natural attacks and also I'd be spending several discoveries on bombs to keep him versatile.
Was also considering taking the Master Alchmist Feat to get the production time on posions down as well
Have you thought about choosing a race that has a natural attack already with it? Like Half-Orc with the alternate bite, or maybe a Tengu with his beak attack? Tengu also has the benefit of its swordtraining feature.
why ? would that stack ?
the feral mutagen grants 1 bite and 2 claws as primary , surely you couldn't get an additional bite attack from a racial ability ?
or does having an existing natural attack increase its die one step when a second natural attack of the same type is applied
I am thinking heavily half orc at the moment since greataxe would be a nice backup prof to have.
And I think the split chymsit personality of a half human half orc mind might be fun to explore RP wise
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Have you thought about choosing a race that has a natural attack already with it? Like Half-Orc with the alternate bite, or maybe a Tengu with his beak attack? Tengu also has the benefit of its swordtraining feature.
why ? would that stack ?
the feral mutagen grants 1 bite and 2 claws as primary , surely you couldn't get an additional bite attack from a racial ability ?
or does having an existing natural attack increase its die one step when a second natural attack of the same type is applied
I am thinking heavily half orc at the moment since greataxe would be a nice backup prof to have.
And I think the split chymsit personality of a half human half orc mind might be fun to explore RP wise
Hmmm? I thought the feral mutagen gave you a slam and 2 claws? Hmmm guess that is my bad for not having the book open in front of me.
Have you considered any of the alternate custom Tiefling builds you can make from the Council of Thieves book #1? I am SURE there is something you can make in there... let me poke my head about it for a moment.
I knew it! Yup, you can build a Demon-Spawn Tiefling with a +2 str and Charisma with -2 int, and in place of the resistances and darkness SLA you get a +2 racial to your int(effectively removing the racial penalty), and you get a spit attack of 1d4 acid (also has a range of up to 5 feet) that would count as a natural attack :D
How's that for optimization!? But keep in mind you will look quite erm... demonic, horns and all.
actually just though of the perfect way to roleplay the low charisma would be to have charcter quite social and eloquant most of the time but due to the alter ego have him blurt out really inappropriate things totally out of character which would be quite disturbing for anyone who doesn't know him.
Have you thought about choosing a race that has a natural attack already with it? Like Half-Orc with the alternate bite, or maybe a Tengu with his beak attack? Tengu also has the benefit of its swordtraining feature.
why ? would that stack ?
the feral mutagen grants 1 bite and 2 claws as primary , surely you couldn't get an additional bite attack from a racial ability ?
or does having an existing natural attack increase its die one step when a second natural attack of the same type is applied
I am thinking heavily half orc at the moment since greataxe would be a nice backup prof to have.
And I think the split chymsit personality of a half human half orc mind might be fun to explore RP wise
Hmmm? I thought the feral mutagen gave you a slam and 2 claws? Hmmm guess that is my bad for not having the book open in front of me.
Have you considered any of the alternate custom Tiefling builds you can make from the Council of Thieves book #1? I am SURE there is something you can make in there... let me poke my head about it for a moment.
I knew it! Yup, you can build a Demon-Spawn Tiefling with a +2 str and Charisma with -2 int, and in place of the resistances and darkness SLA you get a +2 racial to your int(effectively removing the racial penalty), and you get a spit attack of 1d4 acid (also has a range of up to 5 feet) that would count as a natural attack :D
How's that for optimization!? But keep in mind you will look quite erm... demonic, horns and all.
Don't you need to roll a d100 to get 1 out of 3 of those abilities ?
i.e. you can't just pick what you want ?|
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However I've been toying with adding a 1-2 levels of barbarian mainly for rage, but also partly for armor and weapon profs too since 3 natural attacks dies off at higher levels even with feats.Not so much, brutality pretty much creams any improvements better weapons could buy you and I doubt you will be able to benefit from medium armor with greater mutagen going on.I guess that +2-6 damage is given you +6-18 damage during a full attack.
and 3 attacks at full BAB vs 4 attacks at 0/-5/-10/-15 is statistically probably going to net more hit and thus more damage.
My brain is still stuck on the ole addage that multiple BAB attacks will always surpass fixed natural attacks.
You are likely hasted at higher levels so it's 4 attacks at full versus 0/0/-5/-10/-15. Perhaps the weapon is doing more damage at higher level but even if this is true you still don't want a martial weapon because brutality works with simple weapons also. Not great weapons selection but any simple weapon plus the +2-6 points of brutality is... brutal compared to a martial weapon. You might consider a set of keen daggers for the expanded crit range.
Well if you take the fiendish heritiage feat at first level you can pick one of them as a free choice, and then roll 3 times and choose from those 3 that came up as your second... so I guess you couldn't pick/choose both but you can for sure get that acid attack and something cool as a second ability...
Heheh yeah the Teiflings are pretty cool , I was actually thinking of making a Witch Tiefling demonic seducress
You are likely hasted at higher levels so it's 4 attacks at full versus 0/0/-5/-10/-15. Perhaps the weapon is doing more damage at higher level but even if this is true you still don't want a martial weapon because brutality works with simple weapons also. Not great weapons selection but any simple weapon plus the +2-6 points of brutality is... brutal compared to a martial weapon. You might consider a set of keen daggers for the expanded crit range.However I've been toying with adding a 1-2 levels of barbarian mainly for rage, but also partly for armor and weapon profs too since 3 natural attacks dies off at higher levels even with feats.Not so much, brutality pretty much creams any improvements better weapons could buy you and I doubt you will be able to benefit from medium armor with greater mutagen going on.I guess that +2-6 damage is given you +6-18 damage during a full attack.
and 3 attacks at full BAB vs 4 attacks at 0/-5/-10/-15 is statistically probably going to net more hit and thus more damage.
My brain is still stuck on the ole addage that multiple BAB attacks will always surpass fixed natural attacks.
well assuming you spend 2 improved natural weapon feats
your attacks go from1d8 -> 2d6 bite
1d6 x2 -> 1d8 x 2 claws
and then furious mutagen
2d6 -> 3d6 Bite
1d8 x 2 -> 2d6 x2 claws
and thats about as good as any weapon
assuming you get enlarged that could go as high as 4d6 and 3d6 x2
do you think that 2 daggers for the extra 6th attack would be better than a 2handed weapon like a 1d8 spear that will benefit from the 1.5x STR mod bonus from power attack
so it turns out I haven't even factored in Enlarge Person which bumps up the damage die and adds another +2STR bonus
and while +10Stength might be fun its probably overkill
so at the moment its Alchemist 8 / Chymist 10/ Alchemist 2
Half-Orc race taking +1/2 bomb damage (covers the lower INT)
18 STR
14 DEX
14 CON
15 INT (with level 4 attribute bonus here and the rest in Strength)
12 WIS
7 CHA
HP20 (+10 racial HP for half-orc)
maybe sacred tatoo for +1 luck bonus to saves to help Will save
1st level feat I'm having trouble deciding on although skill focus craft alchemy seems like it would be useful brings my craft alchemy check to +9 to start with
Since I don't get feral mutagen until 2nd level a greataxe will suffice
giving me a starting attack of
+5attk 3d6+9 damage under the effects of both mutagen and enlarge person
thoughts ?
So I put togterh a rough draft for some levels
Half Orc +1/2 bomb dmg
1st Level
Skill Focus Craft Alchmy
2nd level
Ferral Mutagen
3rd Level Feat
Power Attack
4th Level
Smoke Bomb
5th Level Feat
Stink Bomb (Extra Feat) (Neaseated is great for combat)
6th Level
Sticky Poison (makes using poisons economical, the good ones are expensive)
7th Level Feat
Concentrate Poison (needed to keep the DC's up)
8th Level
Force Bomb (Knocking Prone is also nice)
(9th Level Feat)
Fast Bombs (Extra Feat)
However after this I'm not sure if it worthwhile Staying with Alchemist until 12th level to get acess to some 12th level discoveries like poison bomb, madness bomb etc.
Or going into Chymist at 9th instead of 11th or 13th
thoughts ?
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Here's the weird thing with Master Chymst... doesn't qualify for higher level discoveries. He's kind of screwed with regards to the best of the alchemist high level stuff. No permanent potion, no elixer of life, no Grand discovery... it's a great ride all the way until 18th level then it kind of fizzes out. Some of the Advanced Mutagens imply they stack but in the main class section they don't appear to.
For me, it's not a big deal, I'll gamble that a campaign will never hit level 20 and move on. Some folks won't like that though.
Edit: also, it's particularly frustrating when you consider that there aren't a lot of great advanced mutagens.
Here's the weird thing with Master Chymst... doesn't qualify for higher level discoveries. He's kind of screwed with regards to the best of the alchemist high level stuff. No permanent potion, no elixer of life, no Grand discovery... it's a great ride all the way until 18th level then it kind of fizzes out. Some of the Advanced Mutagens imply they stack but in the main class section they don't appear to.
For me, it's not a big deal, I'll gamble that a campaign will never hit level 20 and move on. Some folks won't like that though.
Edit: also, it's particularly frustrating when you consider that there aren't a lot of great advanced mutagens.
yeah I noicted thats as well , I guess the real benefit is the full BAB and d10 for those 10 levels.
which is what got me thinking about maybe taking the chymist in spurts. maybe take 4 level of chymist from 9-12th level to pikcup mutate , brutal +2 and two of the better avd mutgens and then back to alchemist from 13-16 to hit those 12th level discoveries bump up your extract levels and then back into chymist to round out to 20th (or stay in alchemist for an alchemist 16/chymist 4)
great guide by the way
just one thing dosen't power attack require BAB +1 which the alchmeist dosen't get until 2nd level ? It the reason I didn't take power attack at 1st in my above build, force bomb is a level 8 minimum as well.
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yeah I noicted thats as well , I guess the real benefit is the full BAB and d10 for those 10 levels.
which is what got me thinking about maybe taking the chymist in spurts. maybe take 4 level of chymist from 9-12th level to pikcup mutate , brutal +2 and two of the better avd mutgens and then back to alchemist from 13-16 to hit those 12th level discoveries bump up your extract levels and then back into chymist to round out to 20th (or stay in alchemist for an alchemist 16/chymist 4)
Well it's a gamble. Personally I'll probably just run with Chymst from 9th on. We're probably not playing through 20th level and it's pretty kick ass until the end. Another possibility is to take those two barbarian levels at 18-20th so you can pick up that extra rage strength :D
great guide by the way
just one thing dosen't power attack require BAB +1 which the alchmeist dosen't get until 2nd level ? It the reason I didn't take power attack at 1st in my above build, force bomb is a level 8 minimum as well.
Thanks, and thanks for the suggestions, you are correct on both.
yeah I noicted thats as well , I guess the real benefit is the full BAB and d10 for those 10 levels.
which is what got me thinking about maybe taking the chymist in spurts. maybe take 4 level of chymist from 9-12th level to pikcup mutate , brutal +2 and two of the better avd mutgens and then back to alchemist from 13-16 to hit those 12th level discoveries bump up your extract levels and then back into chymist to round out to 20th (or stay in alchemist for an alchemist 16/chymist 4)Well it's a gamble. Personally I'll probably just run with Chymst from 9th on. We're probably not playing through 20th level and it's pretty kick ass until the end. Another possibility is to take those two barbarian levels at 18-20th so you can pick up that extra rage strength :D
Thanks, and thanks for the suggestions, you are correct on both.great guide by the way
just one thing dosen't power attack require BAB +1 which the alchmeist dosen't get until 2nd level ? It the reason I didn't take power attack at 1st in my above build, force bomb is a level 8 minimum as well.
hehehe barbarian at the end eh ? well by then that extra STR CON bonus isn't going to ruffle the GM's feathers.
I guess from that perspective you might even consider taking 2 level of several classes
e.g. fighter to round out with some additional combat feats
I did like your idea of being able to fight inside a posion cloud (i.e. cloudkill) as a poison immune alchemist. you could grapple your enemy inside the a cloud and just let him die a slow -CON death hehehe
only downside is that you do need that 12th alchemist level and you'd need to spend a few feats on grapple maybe even the grab/push feat to get them into the cloud and keep em there
There is that advanced mutagen that gives you a +1/2 level bonus to CMB/ CMD...
is that just for you 1/2 your chymist level right ? or is it chymist + alchemist level becuase in the later case that's a very good mutagen for the cloudkill grapple idea.
heh wonder if you could extend Extra Discovery to cover Extra Advanced Mutagen and keep taking Avd Mutagens without taking chymist levels
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There is that advanced mutagen that gives you a +1/2 level bonus to CMB/ CMD...is that just for you 1/2 your chymist level right ? or is it chymist + alchemist level becuase in the later case that's a very good mutagen for the cloudkill grapple idea.
It's just Chymst. Getting a +5 bonus to CMB at character level 10 would be pretty crazy.
heh wonder if you could extend Extra Discovery to cover Extra Advanced Mutagen and keep taking Avd Mutagens without taking chymist levels
Depends on your GM. Seems reasonable to me.
