OK, after going after the rules for crafting time of object. I realized that not only having high skill rolls decrease the amount of time but also how high he DC of the item being crafted.
With this in mind if you have super high skill + bonuses from abilities and items. All you would need to do is increase the DC of the item without increasing the cost of material for the item.
For example, what if the working conditions were not as ideal as you would like it. Like there were always flies bugging you. To me that would make the job harder and thus raise the DC. There are of course other ways to do this other than circumstantial DC raising items.
If you search the other threads, you'll find that this is a well known and much commented on problem. The crafting times don't mirror reality or even make much game sense and optimal or suboptimal circumstances and the game master has to just handwave until the crafter somehow gets Fabricate or something similar (Lyre of Building, etc.) and can then pretty much do it all instantly.
If you search the other threads, you'll find that this is a well known and much commented on problem. The crafting times don't mirror reality or even make much game sense and optimal or suboptimal circumstances and the game master has to just handwave until the crafter somehow gets Fabricate or something similar (Lyre of Building, etc.) and can then pretty much do it all instantly.
Ya and my artificer is just the right level to do fabricate items now. still I did fine it a bit of a fun challenge to come up with clever ways in how to bump up both skill rolls and increasing the DC. Felt kind of epic ya know?
For me, the problems with Craft aren't that the times are realistic, but rather that the rules are ridiculously wonky. From Making Craft Work:
Bizarre Example the First
Erlic wants to Craft a one-pound silver ball. His brother Rynook wants to Craft a one-pound gold ball. A one-pound ball of silver is worth one-tenth as much as a pound of gold. Even though Erlic and Rynook work on pretty much the same project -- melting metal and pouring it into a mold -- Rynook must spend much longer on his one-pound ball simply because it's made of gold.Bizarre Example the Second
Erlic next wants to Craft some full plate. Full plate costs 15,000 silver pieces and faces an armorsmithing DC of 19. Erlic has Craft (armorsmithing) +8. Let's be unrealistic and say that he rolls a 20 for each and every Craft check. 28 times 19 equals 532, which means it'll take Erlic 28 weeks to finish his full plate. So much for having time to adventure.Bizarre Example the Third
Erlic and Rynook want to see who can craft an item first. Erlic decides to make a high-quality box (value 20 silver pieces, Craft DC 15). Rynook wants to make a crowbar (value 20 silver pieces, Craft DC 10). The brothers have only a +1 bonus for their checks as they are both untrained when making these particular items. Again, let's assume they both roll nothing but 20s. Here are the contest's results:* Erlic: 21 times 15 equals 315, which is 15.75 times higher than the box's cost.
* Rynook: 21 times 10 equals 210, which is 10.5 times higher than the crowbar's cost.
* The Winner: Erlic, despite the fact he is making the more complicated item.
The quoted PDF fixes all three problems. See the link above for more information.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
For me, the problems with Craft aren't that the times are realistic, but rather that the rules are ridiculously wonky. From Making Craft Work:
Bizarre Example the First
Erlic wants to Craft a one-pound silver ball. His brother Rynook wants to Craft a one-pound gold ball. A one-pound ball of silver is worth one-tenth as much as a pound of gold. Even though Erlic and Rynook work on pretty much the same project -- melting metal and pouring it into a mold -- Rynook must spend much longer on his one-pound ball simply because it's made of gold.Bizarre Example the Second
Erlic next wants to Craft some full plate. Full plate costs 15,000 silver pieces and faces an armorsmithing DC of 19. Erlic has Craft (armorsmithing) +8. Let's be unrealistic and say that he rolls a 20 for each and every Craft check. 28 times 19 equals 532, which means it'll take Erlic 28 weeks to finish his full plate. So much for having time to adventure.Bizarre Example the Third
Erlic and Rynook want to see who can craft an item first. Erlic decides to make a high-quality box (value 20 silver pieces, Craft DC 15). Rynook wants to make a crowbar (value 20 silver pieces, Craft DC 10). The brothers have only a +1 bonus for their checks as they are both untrained when making these particular items. Again, let's assume they both roll nothing but 20s. Here are the contest's results:* Erlic: 21 times 15 equals 315, which is 15.75 times higher than the box's cost.
* Rynook: 21 times 10 equals 210, which is 10.5 times higher than the crowbar's cost.
* The Winner: Erlic, despite the fact he is making the more complicated item.
The quoted PDF fixes all three problems. See the link above for more information.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
It was only 1 buck, I took a look at this and I LOVE IT. This is exactly what I been looking for! I love the simplicity of it. No funky math, it takes the guess work out of it and has some leeway for being a awesome artisan.
Now, I don't suppose anyone knows of something that is like this for magic item creation. That monster, while I understand and I can work it, is a monster in it's self and doesn't account for the creative artisan player. Please say there is a magic item revamp like this somewhere.
It was only 1 buck, I took a look...
Glad you liked it. I've not really looked to in-depth at the magic item creation rules for PF. What problems do you see with them?
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Not commenting on the whole Craft issue, but on the specific point you had:
For example, what if the working conditions were not as ideal as you would like it. Like there were always flies bugging you. To me that would make the job harder and thus raise the DC. There are of course other ways to do this other than circumstantial DC raising items.
As opposed to increasing the DC (which you can simply do voluntarily by the way), these would be circumstance penalties to the roll. That avoids the benefit of increasing the work completed (and instead reduces it).
It was only 1 buck, I took a look...Glad you liked it. I've not really looked to in-depth at the magic item creation rules for PF. What problems do you see with them?
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Well where do I begin. The system is still a legacy hold over from 3.X should I say more? Just kidding. The only change was that there was no longer an XP lost for creating an item.
The first problem: Time
This is similar to crafting regular items. The problem is that no matter what a caster or artificer can never make more than 1,000 gp worth of items in one day. They also basically say that an magical artisan (crafter) can not work more than 8 hours at a time on a magical item but does not take in the fact that some artisans might be able to endure more than others.
Second Problem: Ignores the power of the artisan
It makes no room for the skill, his stats or character level of the artisan character.
Third Problem: Not flexible and costly
Spell are the primary component in creating the item which is problem because players often get locked into the idea that they are locked into using only those effects. Now they do say that the spell are only a guide line and that it is up for interpretation, mainly by the GM.
What if I just wanted to create a magical cigarette lighter that I could always use unlimited? This item would not be super powerful and is mostly for flavor but you can start fires of course with it. The only way to do this is to make it have unlimited charges of prestidigitation which by RAW would make a light be around (500 something gold) that is a really expensive lighter.
Last Problem: Personal Cost
Magic Item creation has always been a problem area in D&D since 1st edition. Back in 1st and 2nd edition you were required to give up a point of Constitution, permanently. That was real harsh.
In 3.X you had to give up permanently your experience points which also didn't make sense and caused all sorts of problems with their system.
In Pathfinder, there is no personal cost which means that a level 5 Artificer could easily set up shop and make items forever and never need to go on adventures. BTW the ToS artificer, stay away from that train wreck, he is OP in my opinion, good flavor though.
This last problem has always been on my mind as of late as I have always been interested in the character who makes the magic items. I do believe that their should be a personal cost and so far my idea is centered around the temporary loss of ability scores, primarily at least two of the physical ones: Strength and Constitution. I could see this solving the whole time problem because this would allow you to push yourself to your limits but you have to rest in a major way afterwards or have magic help restore your ability loss which can cost the group.
These are just some of the problems that I have had with magic item creation that I can remember at this time.