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''I used to be an Assassin but, ya know? It just wasn't me. So I quit.''
I see some (not all) prestige classes operating in a manner similiar Medieval Guilds - once you're 'in' you become part of a select group - a life long member of a club/group where membership grants knowledge(trade secrets) and power..
Leaving some prestige classes, alive, is not an option... (cue scary music)
However, I notice many folks create character builds that feature a few levels in one or more prestige classes before their character seemingly 'quits' and moves onto/into something else - having not completed the prestige class.
This makes me wonder:
1 - Does committing to a prestige class imply a committment to 'finishing' its progression?
2 - What could be the possible consequences of leaving a prestige class early?
3 - What are your thoughts/how does your campaign regard ex-prestige class (failed?) members?
However, some of the prestige classes feature very select members, the assassin prestige class especially. Assumingly, becoming an assassin involves the discovery of trade secrets - and knowing such secrets could seriously endanger a character who 'leaves the brotherhood'.
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I would never punish someone for not finishing a prestige class. The prestige class is a mechanical construct with no impact on the game world beyond the class abilities it grants.
If the character tried to leave an actual guild in game, I could see a repercussion. I doubt the Red Mantis guild just lets people retire.
But stopping progression in a prestige class will not get you kicked out. The NPCs have no idea what levels your character has, and so should not have roleplay actions based on them.
It Probably depends on what the presitge class is. But i dont think your oblgated to Take them to the end.
Some like the Asassin where you hve to be part of a guild you could probly flub up membership. But flubbing up membership would be wholly un-connected to wether you take more lvels in the prestige class.
Others like Eldritch Knght i dont really see any social connection or anything but the mechancial benefits of the class.
im sure theres some PRCs that you could fail like a paldin or 'loose your way' like a monk becoming non laweful but cant think of any off the top of my head.
easy answer, it really depends on the RP stuff required to get into the PRC as far as failing goes but if the PRc has no prereqs suggesting membership youc ant really fail the membership.
I would never punish someone for not finishing a prestige class. The prestige class is a mechanical construct with no impact on the game world beyond the class abilities it grants....
*ninja snip*
...stopping progression in a prestige class will not get you kicked out. The NPCs have no idea what levels your character has, and so should not have roleplay actions based on them.
Aye, fair point - Likewise, I wouldn't seek to overtly punish/discourage characters from leaving a prestige class.
However, I am thinking of how *active* members would react.
You mention that other members wouldn't know how many levels you had in the prestige class - however, all of the prestige classes grant abilities at various levels and grant a capstone. Members could easily grage each other on who-can-do what.
i.e ''Can you teleport through the shadows yet Shadowdancer Randy?''
..so, while exact levels/values wouldn't be known, it would seem feasible that *active* members would be aware if a character 'quits' without 'finishing'.
..and what about the stigma of Benny the Loremaster - 11 years in training, still hasn't made it past the 3rd grade? :D
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If the character tried to leave an actual guild in game, I could see a repercussion. I doubt the Red Mantis guild just lets people retire.
I agree - and this makes me wonder which other prestige classes could have consequences for leaving.
Just to clarify, I'm not implying that every prestige's *active* members would hunt down and dispose of 'quitters' (We represent the Loremasters of the land - your actions have dishounered our calling - YOU MUST DIE!!!) ..however I could see social stigma following ex-members of many prestige classes - assuming their prestige class has an active following/supporters in a campaign world.
I figure that, well, take the Shadowdancer - it would seem something that's not easily self taught.. (or is it? Could a connection to the shadow could developean innate affinity? Campaign specific m'thinks..)
...membership of such a prestige class would seemingly involve contact with other members of the prestige class (Hey, you love shadows to! Let's be friends!) and suddenly 'quitting' could alienate *active* members (You quit? ..but.. ...but.. we were Best Shadow Buddies Forever!? *-*)
..easy answer, it really depends on the RP stuff required to get into the PRC as far as failing goes but if the PRc has no prereqs suggesting membership youc ant really fail the membership.
Aye, that's pretty much the crux of the matter..
-- so, what do folks assign, fluff wise, (if anything) to the various prestige classes?
Personally we represent each as a group/society but as TriOmegaZero states, they can be simply treated as mechanical constructs.
To avoid any madness - I'm not saying that either perception is better nor that either perspective excludes the potential for incorperating the other - I'm simply curious to how you regard prestige classes!
The only time there should be an in game consequence for stopping leveling in a prestige class is if as a prereq for that class there was an in game RP requirement.
Becoming an assassin is not the same thing as joining an assassin guild. Becoming a rogue is not the same as joining a thieves guild. However, if you have to petition a current member of an association or guild before you can even take a level of that class, then you have certainly signed up for whatever the "rules" are for that organization. And in that case there could be problems for leaving the fold.
Hi there BenignFacist,
1) Taking a prestige class does not nessissarily imply comitting to taking all levels in it. While it takes a great amount of comitment to get the ability to take some prestige classes, it does not mean that the character HAS to complete the levels. The fighter/rogue may just want a few levels of duelist to give him a defensisive boost, or the dragon sorcerer takes a few levels of dragon disciple, goes back to sorcerer, planing to possibly continue hhis apotheosis at a later time.
2) I think you are confusing a prestige class with a game element. If there is some game element involved with a prestige class (the gm makes an assassin guild, and makes the pc join it) his taking one level of assassin to get the poison use, thengoing back to fighter ot rogue, does not mean he left the guild. Not every assassin has levels in assassin, and not every assassin is nescessarily a member of a guild.
3) How would that person know, except possibly in the case of a dragon disciple? A dragon disciple who has completed the prestige class might look at a PC and wonder why he has had dinky little wings for 10 years, but that doesn't nesessarily mean that he knows what level the PC is. He may approach him, offer to help him evolve, but really, advancement in all these prestige classes are at the direction of the PC. If he took a couple levels of dragon disciple, and decided he needed to advance his sorcerer levels some more, then he should feel free to do so. No clan of dragon disciples are going to come after him and make him apotheosis.
Saying that, if there are some guilds involved (such as the case of the 3.5 mage of the arcane order) there are ususaly rules detailed in the prestige class detailing things. Dues and such, but even that class didn't state that the guild expected you to advance to resgent as fast as possible.
Becoming an assassin doesn't actualy require any trade secrets. It might be easier to learn them from another assassin, sometimes for money, sometimes for his deity, parton, or country, and a GM might require that, but really all an assassin does is kill people, sometimes not even efficiently (Bond's first kill in Caseno Royale). An assassin knows where to hit just right to get the maximum damage, which is just sneak attack.
I hope this helps
EDIT - Obviouisly some fo this has already been touched upon, when I started my post, there were no other replies. Args.
I don't see any deal with taking levels in other classes. For example, if you become a Judge in my homebrew, some Judges will go straight to level 10, other Judges will go back to take levels in the classes that got them the prereqs for the Judge class (e.g. Paladin), and other Judges might take up new classes or new PrCs, for example, there is a Paladin/Evoker/Judge/Cavalier in my campaign.
The assumption the other Judges would make would be that this character decided to take training with the Cavaliers in order to better do her Judging stuff. A Cavalier who takes levels in the Dungeon Delver class might raise some eyebrows, but neither the Cavaliers nor the Dungeon Delvers would hold it against her.
If a PrC has a section on ex-members, then that would apply if the PC does something to trigger that section. For example, a Judge who violates the laws of the kingdom would become an ex-Judge, and the other Judges would hunt her down. But it wouldn't matter what other classes she took or did not take.
There is a situation which came up in my campaign. I have an order of monks, the Ironfists, which encourage multiclassing as Paladins. One of the NPCs entered the Ironfist order, gaining a level of Monk. Then she went on to take a level of Bard, a level of Cleric, and a level of Ranger. When she picked up her Bard and Cleric levels, people in the Ironfists were asking if she'd ever complete her Ironfist training. The answer is, probably never, especially since her father expects her to become a Judge soon.
As for the stigmata, if there are like guilds of XYZs, and the pc is a member of it, and he has taken year and years to develop some of his powers, there may be some in-guildrazzing, and who knows, the guild master may push him to develop his powers. But in game, the npcs and pcs don't know about levels, and in some cases, if a pc onluy develops a certain point, it may simply be seen as 'as far as he can go' or at least seen as 'only a dabler.'
The fighter/rogue/low level assassin who can kill 3 men before the rogue/high level assassin has a chance to get his 3 rounds off, likly makes more money, and can likly still do things quietly.
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Personally we represent each as a group/society but as TriOmegaZero states, they can be simply treated as mechanical constructs.
Oh dear, I see my reputation precedes me. :3
To avoid any madness - I'm not saying that either perception is better nor that either perspective excludes the potential for incorperating the other - I'm simply curious to how you regard prestige classes!
Well I am saying my perception is better! So there.
*shakes maracas*
In all seriousness, I agree that the amount and power of class abilities can give characters an idea of 'how far on the path' a character is, and could determine rank or attitudes among adherents. After all, everyone respects a guy who can cast 9th level spells. However, unless there is an actual organization and rules, quitting the prestige class shouldn't be a huge stigma.
One concept that I've been playing with is one I called "certification".
The idea is that a character could take a series of tests, and be certified with a title such as "Wizard", "Champion", "Patriarch", etc.
These tests do not reveal what class you are, because classes do not have a metaphysical existence within this world. So it is conceivable that you could meet the standards to call yourself a "Wizard" even if you don't actually have any levels in the Wizard character class.
Some base classes in 3.5e used to have those clauses for leveling in another class (like Paladin or Monk), and there were feats for being able to multiclass with specific classes, etc.
Personally, I feel that Prestige Classes should be more closely tied to the campaign, and another mechanic (such as those archetypes) for things like "Weapon Master".
Even then, not taking a level in the Prestige Class would simply be like "not learning" or "not advancing" with that guild/group.
Now... trying to gain entry to another Prestige Class (or rather guild/group) is where you might lose out.
As long as the powers from the Prestige Class are not being granted through some means (like divine powers, or a power source that the guild controls), you should keep the training you got.
A sly character might even be able to get away with obtaining training from separate guilds, or guilds might not be so rigid in their training (no exclusivity clause).
If you are allowing a player to just have access to the Prestige Class abilities through self training, then restricting it really wouldn't make sense. This would apply to most of those generic PrCs, but quite a few could be seen in this light (I'd allow a person to learn on his own how to be an Assassin for example... never liked the whole "must kill for no other reason" requirement).
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Thank you for your replies.
''PUT THE MARACAS *DOWN*''
''Sir, we have a shot!''
''Take.. him... down...''
One concept that I've been playing with is one I called "certification".
The idea is that a character could take a series of tests, and be certified with a title such as "Wizard", "Champion", "Patriarch", etc.
These tests do not reveal what class you are, because classes do not have a metaphysical existence within this world. So it is conceivable that you could meet the standards to call yourself a "Wizard" even if you don't actually have any levels in the Wizard character class.
Awesome, I like. I really, really like.
The fighter/rogue/low level assassin who can kill 3 men before the rogue/high level assassin has a chance to get his 3 rounds off, likly makes more money, and can likly still do things quietly.
..true - this would work well with Utgardloki's suggestions of 'certifiactions' - i.e the character is an Assassin by his actions/capabilites, regarded as such by others because he's met a series of requirements/'passed the test'.
The introduction of certifications would establish a system of representation that characters can attain and benefit from if acquired.
Granted you don't *need* a certification to call yourself an assassin but I can see how such an element could link in with other campaign elements to create an interesting system of representation/codifying achievement, one that could grant in-game benefits..
''Yeah, he's one of us, let him pass..''
..and in so doing would provide another 'something' for players to go for, if they so chose.
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I really like the idea of making each and every prestige class representive of a group/guild/club/calling -- at the moment our table treats them as 'mechanical constructs' (as someone called them - I forget who..).
For example, it would be easy to imagine Loremasters being members of various scholary institutes known as 'Libraries'. Each Library would have a different focus/tradtion and their own quirks.
Also, each Library would literally have access to an actual library who's documents/books/papers etc would focus on a key area of research (along with being a source of general infomation on a variety of scholary subjects), bestowing the character bonuses when researching subjects/seeking infomation in the area of focus.
..the library, the library, it's a place where books are free...
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Now... trying to gain entry to another Prestige Class (or rather guild/group) is where you might lose out.
Awesome.
''Well, to be honest Dave, it seems to us that you can't hold down a prestige class for more than a year. So, you tell us, why should we commit our time and resources to training you?''
Well, there's that... then there's also:
"Aren't you a Black Hand Assassin? Why are you approaching the Arcane Thieves? We wouldn't touch you if-"
"So. I hear you have been thinking of breaking the "non-compete" clause of your membership..."
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Well, there's that... then there's also:
"Aren't you a Black Hand Assassin? Why are you approaching the Arcane Thieves? We wouldn't touch you if-"
"So. I hear you have been thinking of breaking the "non-compete" clause of your membership..."
Nothing says "Non-Disclosure Agreement" like an exposed artery!
In the games I've run, I've always played PrCs as having a logical and tangible link to the game world. This can be represented by joining a guild or secret society, swearing fealty to a powerful entity, or seeking out the wise old sage on the mountaintop, but there's always an in-game investment of time and effort by the character. After getting the first level of their PrC, the character is going to be expected to maintain in-game responsibilities that go with the class such as tithing, attending ceremonies or other functions, assisting senior members of the organization, etc.
That said, I always try to balance the in-game responsibilities and repercussions with in-game perks and rewards. Membership in guilds and secret societies can grant access to shared facilities, new equipment, new spells, etc. The wise old sage becomes a source of information and magical divination, as well as a mentor. And of course, everything leads to more story hooks.
So as far as the OP's question goes, while you could quit taking levels in a PrC without any in-game repercussions, you'd still be beholden to the in-game responsibilities that go with the PrC. To leave entirely would definitely provoke a response, although that would vary based on the organization. This also seems to reduce the occurrences of level dipping into multiple PrCs, as it takes more work to get into a PrC, and many organizations or patrons might be displeased with a member who joined up somewhere else.
This approach would be difficult for published material, given the wide variety of home-brewed worlds out there, but I've always found it works for me. It's really not that much work, as the PCs are going to let me know ahead of time what PrC they're interested in. Generally I'll present a few organizations at the onset of the campaign that could represent one or more of the more common PrCs, and I'm good to go. Where a player wants a PrC that I hadn't anticipated, I usually tell them to write up an outline of the organization and the costs, responsibilities, and benefits of membership. Almost without exception, they write harsher responsibilities and costs than I ever would.
There was one PrC in 3.5 that you had to complete once you started it; Risen Martyr from Book of Exalted Deeds.
In general however, forcing a player to take every single level in a prestige class they start is not a good idea IMO.
As for in-game repercussions; most NPCs (and PCs) should be acting based on what a person does/says, not on which class levels the person may have. It would also be pretty difficult for anyone to determine the actual class level of another PC/NPC in-game; you can probably determine the minimum class level a person can have, but there is no way to determine the maximum class level a person can possibly have (PCs/NPCs are not required to use their highest-level powers.. If a Sorcerer casts Mage Hand every round, he may still be 20th level, after all :))
Also, the vast majority of NPCs, even among leaders, do not have full levels in the accompanying PrC. Some even have none; just look at the lists of top ranked Hellknights, for instance.
Another point is that people only get so good at anything. Maybe you did not get to the next level because you could not hack it. How is the game world supposed to know the difference between the individual who took 3 levels of _____, and the one that reach his max potential. Most people(citizens of the fantasy world) in D&D don't get past level 5.
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I seriously doubt that the Red Mantis kill anyone who doesn't keep progressing to Assassin 10 (or Red Mantis Assassin 10). You can be a damn effective assassin without ever putting a single level into either of those classes. If anything, diversity would increase the ability of the Red Mantis to call on the right assassin for the job.
The characters in-game don't really know levels that specifically. They might know that a having certain ability or spell can mean a certain level of training/power, but that's about it.
The Red Mantis Assassins probably won't kill someone for not advancing in "in the prestige class". They might, however, kill someone for revealing their secrets, or for seeking support/training from their enemies/competition (unsanctioned anyways, there's always going undercover).
If you require that the Prestige Class levels/abilities need to be provided by training from someone in-game, there can be in-game reasons for them not allowing you to continue with levels in that class.
Punching your superior in the face, for example...
..there can be in-game reasons for them not allowing you to continue with levels in that class.
Punching your superior in the face, for example...
SHE HAD IT COMING!!!
/guildquit Girl Guides