Last night our group ran up against a horned devil. Our party is all 11-12th level, and we were having great difficulty fighting this thing. Most of our sorcerer's spells and my wizard's failed to get through its high SR and saves. We didn't even bother trying to nuke the thing with blasts, since we assumed that, as a powerful devil, it would be highly resistant if not immune to most elements. Nobody in the group has a holy weapon, so our fighter types barely even scratched it with its DR.
So then I get the idea to summon a Celestial Dire Tiger. Looking at the celestial template, i notice it has the Smite Evil ability. Cool, I thought, maybe that would allow it to get through the devil's DR and deal some decent damage before dying. Well, then we look at the Smite Evil rules and ... wow. The Dire Tiger adds +28 damage (twice its HD) to EVERY attack because the creature is a devil AND completely ignores its DR. So I roll the attacks, and 3 claws (our bard was kind enough to hold action and caste haste on my summon as soon as it appeared), a bite, and 2 rake attacks hit. I end up doing over 200 points of damage to the devil, killing it.
Our entire group was speachless. We read and reread the smite evil rules to be sure we were doing it correctly. I mean, there's just no way this could be right. If we understand it correctly, it's such a horrendously overpowered and cheesy ability I feel dirty for even using it. One summon with one special attack shouldn't make an encounter go from perilous for a 6 person party to easy as pie, should it?
Tell me we're reading Smite Evil wrong. Please. I've been pretty impressed with the relatively well balanced changes to Pathfinder so far, but this new Smite Evil is just... insane.
Smite evil was recently errata'd. Now it does double damage on the 1st attack only; the rest do damage equal to your level. If you look around you'll find the thread where this was discussed and where Jason talks about it as well.
Tell me we're reading Smite Evil wrong. Please. I've been pretty impressed with the relatively well balanced changes to Pathfinder so far, but this new Smite Evil is just... insane.
Alas, the Celestial Template version of Smite Evil is not the same as the Paladin's. Here's the info from the PRD for Celestial Creatures:
Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests).
So a Celestial Dire Tiger would get an extra +14 damage per hit, not +28, and it doesn't bypass the DR either (it would meet the Good requirement I think, but not Silver).
Smite evil was recently errata'd. Now it does double damage on the 1st attack only; the rest do damage equal to your level.
Well, even that would probably have killed it in one round. The Dire Tiger's attacks, with bardic music, were doing about 17 damage on average, and then you'd add 14 damage (the DT's HD) from smite evil. While not quite as insane as adding 28 damage per attack, it's still crazy.
Alas, the Celestial Template version of Smite Evil is not the same as the Paladin's. Here's the info from the PRD for Celestial Creatures:
Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests).So a Celestial Dire Tiger would get an extra +14 damage per hit, not +28, and it doesn't bypass the DR either (it would meet the Good requirement I think, but not Silver).
Ah, interesting point. I had assumed that was just a summary and the ability followed the same rules as the Paladin ability with the same name.
Smite evil was recently errata'd. Now it does double damage on the 1st attack only; the rest do damage equal to your level.Well, even that would probably have killed it in one round. The Dire Tiger's attacks, with bardic music, were doing about 17 damage on average, and then you'd add 14 damage (the DT's HD) from smite evil. While not quite as insane as adding 28 damage per attack, it's still crazy.
Well, since you were using a paladin's smite evil, I will also note that a paladin is supposed to be hot stuff against evil undead and dragons and outsiders. They're the most evil of the evil. Against other critters, the paladin is effective, but not godlike. I've fought horned devils before, they're tough customers, especially with their damage output and fast healing. You guys made the best choice for the job at hand.
Last night our group ran up against a horned devil. Our party is all 11-12th level, and we were having great difficulty fighting this thing. Most of our sorcerer's spells and my wizard's failed to get through its high SR and saves. We didn't even bother trying to nuke the thing with blasts, since we assumed that, as a powerful devil, it would be highly resistant if not immune to most elements. Nobody in the group has a holy weapon, so our fighter types barely even scratched it with its DR.
So then I get the idea to summon a Celestial Dire Tiger. Looking at the celestial template, i notice it has the Smite Evil ability. Cool, I thought, maybe that would allow it to get through the devil's DR and deal some decent damage before dying. Well, then we look at the Smite Evil rules and ... wow. The Dire Tiger adds +28 damage (twice its HD) to EVERY attack because the creature is a devil AND completely ignores its DR. So I roll the attacks, and 3 claws (our bard was kind enough to hold action and caste haste on my summon as soon as it appeared), a bite, and 2 rake attacks hit. I end up doing over 200 points of damage to the devil, killing it.
Our entire group was speachless. We read and reread the smite evil rules to be sure we were doing it correctly. I mean, there's just no way this could be right. If we understand it correctly, it's such a horrendously overpowered and cheesy ability I feel dirty for even using it. One summon with one special attack shouldn't make an encounter go from perilous for a 6 person party to easy as pie, should it?
Tell me we're reading Smite Evil wrong. Please. I've been pretty impressed with the relatively well balanced changes to Pathfinder so far, but this new Smite Evil is just... insane.
Don't fight thing with smite head on. The devil should have been flying. He had an entire round to spellcraft the summon spell. No, you are not being scolded. Just beware of the smite. It is not broken, but it is not to be taken lightly either.
Also to note, the Dire Tiger/Lion is an amazing burst damage creature. Adding smite to an already nasty damage dealer is going to make a scary creature.
I believe there was a thread around before that talked about the Dire Lion being devastating to appropriately CR'd parties (although that included the stealth/perception issue, too).
With Pounce, Grab and Rake, it can do a lot of damage, very quickly.
This scenario is an "optimal corner case" situation (high bonus damage on a creature that can full attack with 5 attacks on a charge).
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Also to note, the Dire Tiger/Lion is an amazing burst damage creature. Adding smite to an already nasty damage dealer is going to make a scary creature.
I believe there was a thread around before that talked about the Dire Lion being devastating to appropriately CR'd parties (although that included the stealth/perception issue, too).
With Pounce, Grab and Rake, it can do a lot of damage, very quickly.
This scenario is an "optimal corner case" situation (high bonus damage on a creature that can full attack with 5 attacks on a charge).
I personally think they underrated the things CR by at least 2 simply because of how ridiculous rake and pounce are. A good charge can too easily take out an equivalent level non-heavy armor wearing class.
Under 3.5, I ran a random encounter with a catamount (dire mountain lion). It attacked the ranger in the surprise round and got to go first on initiative: it ended up slaying him in the first round!
...Luckily there was a high-powered druid just down the path!
I dislike the animal summons by default, for non-druids, for flavor but especially because of a poor balance in how hard they can hit compared to summons I appreciate more flavorwise (like elementals and other non-template outsiders).
The templates are in my opinion just lazy game design, dont summon a fiendish dog if you can summon a hellhound with actual stats.. make the summons something unique, the fact that the cheesy creatures hit hard and are expendable doesnt help much.
So then I get the idea to summon a Celestial Dire Tiger. Looking at the celestial template, i notice it has the Smite Evil ability. Cool, I thought, maybe that would allow it to get through the devil's DR and deal some decent damage before dying. Well, then we look at the Smite Evil rules and ... wow. The Dire Tiger adds +28 damage (twice its HD) to EVERY attack because the creature is a devil AND completely ignores its DR.
Apart form the errata about the double damage during the first attack only, I think there is another aspect to consider: the celestial template doesn't gove the ability to smite like a Paladin do.
It allows only to to make a smite attack (+1/HD to damage and charisma get through it.If it were the Paladin ability, the smite description would say "as a paladin", similar to how creatures with the evasion ability might say "see rogue", etc.
For a direct example, the Half-Celestial template, has a different text:
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day as a swift action the half-celestial can smite evil as a paladin of the same level as its Hit Dice. The smite persists until the target is dead of the half-celestial rests.
So for the Celestial template (such as with a Summoned monster), it only grants a damage bonus equal to HD, no double damage ever (for outsiders, dragons or undead).
It doesn't bypass DR though (unless the natural weapons being treated as good is sufficient, no cold iron or silver though), and it's only 1/day for that summoned creature, so it can't lay into a group of devils like this.
Still a really good use of a summon monster spell. If you don't have an align weapon spell on hand, it's the next best thing (possibly better depending on the situation).
It is the same situation created bu the "Aura of faith" of a Paladin. Only herself can bypass the DR, the others players get ONLY the bonuses....
Anyone disagree?
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So then I get the idea to summon a Celestial Dire Tiger. Looking at the celestial template, i notice it has the Smite Evil ability. Cool, I thought, maybe that would allow it to get through the devil's DR and deal some decent damage before dying. Well, then we look at the Smite Evil rules and ... wow. The Dire Tiger adds +28 damage (twice its HD) to EVERY attack because the creature is a devil AND completely ignores its DR.Apart form the errata about the double damage during the first attack only, I think there is another aspect to consider: the celestial template doesn't gove the ability to smite like a Paladin do.
It allows only to to make a smite attack (+1/HD to damage and charisma get through it.If it were the Paladin ability, the smite description would say "as a paladin", similar to how creatures with the evasion ability might say "see rogue", etc.
For a direct example, the Half-Celestial template, has a different text:
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day as a swift action the half-celestial can smite evil as a paladin of the same level as its Hit Dice. The smite persists until the target is dead of the half-celestial rests.
So for the Celestial template (such as with a Summoned monster), it only grants a damage bonus equal to HD, no double damage ever (for outsiders, dragons or undead).It doesn't bypass DR though (unless the natural weapons being treated as good is sufficient, no cold iron or silver though), and it's only 1/day for that summoned creature, so it can't lay into a group of devils like this.
Still a really good use of a summon monster spell. If you don't have an align weapon spell on hand, it's the next best thing (possibly better depending on the situation).It is the same situation created bu the "Aura of faith" of a Paladin. Only herself can bypass the DR, the others players get ONLY the bonuses....
Anyone disagree?
No i don't, i think that you are right but i still would like a clarification on that simply to rule out vagueness duo to wordcount.