One of my players play a Druid and wants to move into the Warshaper prestige class from 3.5's Complete Warrior.
Now I read the class and while it only has 5 levels it's extremely potent. Almost to the point where I find it a bit overpowered.
So I decided that if he's to take the class I'd make some changes to it, so that it fits better with the Pathfinder prestige classes, at least somewhat.
So here's the changes I made
Morphic Immunities: Immunity to crit and stun is exchanged with immunity to sneak damage and vital strikes.
Morphic Healing: Added a limit of uses/day. The amount is ½ character level + con mod. Instead of a Concentration check the character makes a Fort save against the damage + 5. Only successful saves count towards the daily amount.
The 1st, 3rd and 5th Warshaper level adds to caster level & spells, plus counts as druid levels for animal companion increases.
The other abilities are left unchanged.
What do you guys think?
If you believe that the warshaper was not overpowered, you weren't using it right. When my brother and I updated it, we weakened it. on a side note, I believe that the nature warrior (also from complete warrior) is more of what you are looking for, as it already gives those benefits.
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If you believe that the warshaper was not overpowered, you weren't using it right. When my brother and I updated it, we weakened it. on a side note, I believe that the nature warrior (also from complete warrior) is more of what you are looking for, as it already gives those benefits.
Well ... care to tell us why you find Warshaper overpowered ?
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oh, believe me I've used/abused the hell out of it. The thing is compaire it to what else you could be getting from other things. A druid isnt getting casting or improvements to their wildshape (but gets a slight boost in melee). a fighter isnt getting any nifty fighter stuff, ect.
in 3.5 it was actually a decent fix for pc's as monster races, since it gave back some power lost threw LA's.
the healing is the biggest thing.
I had a changeling jester i let qualify in an old game, and it was awesome.
I designed and my brother played a changeling monk/warshaper. The things he was doing should have been illegal. Also, you need to balance it vs. all classes, not just druid (easier said than done).
P.S. immunity to vital strike doesn't make a lot of sense, and almost nothing is immune to critical hits and sneak attacks in PF.
I don't think the Warlock is overpowered, and I don't think the changes to the warshaper are that over powered, just that the warshaper is already strong and the changes to the warshaper make it a lot like a preexisting class (the aforementioned nature's warrior).
If I am recalling correctly, one of the biggest issues with the Warshaper was how easy it was to qualify for. BAB +4 and be able to Change Shape, thats it.
Offhand, I'm not sure what can be done to change this. A PrC that has a higher base entry level can reasonably be expected to be more powerful than lower entry requirement PrCs. Make some adjustments in that regard and it should be as much of a problem at higher levels. Or require some specific feats.
Great Fortitude, Endurance, perhaps Toughness? I only suggest these feats because the class is mainly geared towards making the one taking it tougher.
The one ability you didn't change was Morphic Body. That class ability was the biggest draw of the class that I saw back in 3.5. Two levels in the class and you get a +4 Strength and Constitution? Also, the Class rather specifically doesn't say these bonuses don't apply no matter if you are using Wild Shape or not. If it applies during Wild Shape only, it could be alright, but I'd move it to Level 4 instead of Level 2.
I'm not saying all three or even that any of these are best for such requirements. But the class should have stricter requirements for entry. As it stands, its somewhat like the Abjurant Champion. There are almost no requirements for a Druid (whom the class was basically designed for, though it does fit other archetypes as well), you just hit the right level and you can take the class. The other changes you've made seem okay at first glance and balance the class overall better...but I'd have to take a closer look to say more.
Here is a further breakdown of how I might do the class before allowing it with Pathfinder.
Requirements: BAB +7
Feats: Great Fortitude and Toughness
Skills: Knowledge: Nature 5 ranks, Survival 5 ranks.
(this puts the entry level at Level 10 for a Druid)
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +1 +0 +0 Morphic Immunity (revision, see below)
+1 level of Spellcasting ability
2 +1 +1 +1 +1 Morphic Healing (per your revision)
3 +2 +2 +1 +1 Morphic Reach
+1 level of Spellcasting Ability
4 +2 +2 +2 +2 Morphic Body
5 +3 +3 +2 +2 Flashmorph/Multimorph
+1 Level of spellcasting abilty
Morphic Immunities: A Warshaper gains 10% immunity to Critical Hits and Precision damage per level of this Prestige class. This does not stack with Critical Immunity from other sources.
Note: The reason for this revision to Morphic Immunity is that even Heavy Fortification Armor doesn't provide 100% immunity to Crits anymore. 50% at 15th level is Moderate Fortification (a +3 armor modification they get for basically free).
Those are my thoughts on this class at least.
Alternatively, you could lower the BAB requirement back down to 4 and raise the Knowledge: Nature or Survival requirements to 8.
That would allow a base entry point of 8th level minimum.
Morphic Immunity as written in the Warshaper is too powerful, especially for a 1st level ability (1 level dip for Immunity to Crits?! O.O). The proposed change by the OP is a bit odd (IMO), so I adjusted it to be more in line with the level scaling abilities of most PF PrCs.
A major ability like that should scale with the levels of the class, to encourage and reward people that take the full five levels in the class, not be front loaded at first level or totally nerfed either.
The best thing about skill based requirements is that everybody meets them at the same time in PF.
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Morphic Immunity as written in the Warshaper is too powerful, especially for a 1st level ability (1 level dip for Immunity to Crits?! O.O). The proposed change by the OP is a bit odd (IMO), so I adjusted it to be more in line with the level scaling abilities of most PF PrCs.
A major ability like that should scale with the levels of the class, to encourage and reward people that take the full five levels in the class, not be front loaded at first level or totally nerfed either.
I can agree with that. I think I would place it at 20% increments on levels 1, 2, 4, and 5. You end up better than Heavy Fort by a hair, but have to go the full five levels to get it. Which is not a hard choice looking at the other features, but still better than a 1 level dip.
The best thing about skill based requirements is that everybody meets them at the same time in PF.
Very true. And since this class isn't necessarily a Druid class (though that is who its geared to) you could also drop Knowledge: Nature entirely and just base Skill requirements on Survival alone.
I can agree with that. I think I would place it at 20% increments on levels 1, 2, 4, and 5. You end up better than Heavy Fort by a hair, but have to go the full five levels to get it. Which is not a hard choice looking at the other features, but still better than a 1 level dip.
The only issue I have with that TriOmega, is that a high level Druid with all five levels in this class can easily stack some nasty armor on top of that 80% Fortification. Any other character has to give up a full +5 worth of magical bonuses for that. A PrC is supposed to give a focused bonus/theme, but not outpower what other classes can do defensively so much. Not ranting, just saying. As an example, lets assume +8 armor at level 15.
15th level Figher's Armor
+3 Heavy Fortification Fullplate Armor
15th Level Druid/Warshaper
+5 Wild Ironwood Fullplate Armor
+80% Fortification
Not a huge difference, I'll give you that (this is assuming two heavy armor wearing characters as well)...but a Druid typically shouldn't have a higher armor bonus to AC than the Fighter in a party. When leveling in a campaign they will accumulate equipment more organically, but the point stands.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
Well, I would also be keeping it without spell progression. The druid is welcome to do that if he wants to lose five levels of spellcasting.
Ah...medium BAB and no spellcasting progression to focus just on Form Control, that would make sense. Good idea for an alternate build TriOmega.
I agree TriOmega, but I was trying to do it in keeping with the OPs idea.
Your variant would be perfectly feasible and closer to the original class too though.
I broke warshaper by using the changling race to qualify for it. i didn't need to be a Druid. made my rogue impossible to kill.
I know this is an old thread but I have a suggestion for the Warshaper prestige, as a 4 level prestige class. Hold on, there's a reason for the specific number.
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +1 +0 +0 Morphic Fortification, Morphic Body, morphic weapons
2 +1 +1 +1 +1 Morphic Reach
3 +2 +2 +1 +1 Morphic Healing
4 +2 +2 +2 +2 Flashmorph/Multimorph/Fortification boost
Requirements: Race/ability: Race with (shapechanger) subtype, class ability that allows shape changing (such as wild shape or the dragon disciple’s form of the dragon), or the ability to cast “Polymorph” as a spell or spell-like ability
Heal 5 ranks or Survival 5 ranks
Morphic Fortification: A Warshaper gains 10% immunity to Critical Hits and Precision damage per level of this Prestige class. This does not stack with Critical Immunity from other sources.
Morphic Body: A Warshapers control and knowledge of their own anatomy allows them to gradually boost their physical health and strength. A Warshaper gains +1 to Strength and Constitution per level of this prestige class. (Reduction suggestion, +1 to strength or con at each level of this prestige class, chosen each time, or maybe if one takes both they also take a -1 penalty to Dexterity)
Alternate note: Morphic fortification can say "Pick two of the following 3: +1 Strength, +1 Con, +10% fortification" so those who plan to take fortification armor can just take the +4 to str and con over all levels.
Morphic Weapons: Same as described in the Complete Warrior with the following caveats: the size boost can only be applied to a specific natural weapon once (to avoid the multiple boost exploit described above) and can't be applied to enhanced unamred strikes from a class ability such as s monk or the ninja trick that does this (citation needed), as those are a result of training rather than raw power and increasing their size would throw off the control that a PC would have gained, that or their a result of Ki and not natural power.
Morphic Healing: A warshaper gains Fast Healing 2; A number of times per day a Warshaper may make a fortitude save (DC= damage sustained -5) to heal 10 points of damage or an amount of physical ability damage (Str, Dex or Con) equal to his warshaper level. A Warshaper may use this boosted ability a number of times per day equal to ½ his character level + his Con modifier. (Suggestion, perhaps a druid, monk or ninja should have to spend one use of wild shape or one Ki point to use the enhanced version, and warshaper levels stack to determine the number of wild shapes or the ki pool total)
Flashmorph/multimorph/fortification boost: Flashmorph and Multimorph function as described or the Warshaper can forgo either ability to gain an extra 10% to Morphic Fortification (for a maximum potential of 50%. If the fortificaiton variant above is used then they could take an extra +1 to Str or Con instead of the +10% to fortification)
I think this works to allow the abilities to be spread out more so peopel don't just dip for +4 to str and con and call it a class (even if it's pushed back to level 4) also I think that morphic healing should allow one to mend damage to physical ability stats as well since those cna hurt in combat more than hp damage