If you have an Animal Companion that has more than one Nat Att, is it possible to take this feat a separate time for each attack?
Now according to the feat description in the Bestiary, it specifically does not say you can take this feat more than once, unlike the Imp Nat Armor feat.
If you can't technically take this feat several times, it seems to me it would be more of a house rule.
Appreciate any and all comments,
Thanks!
According to the guys at HeroLab, it's only takeable once, since the text doesn't specify that it can be taken multiple times.
Improved Natural Attack [General]
Prerequisite
Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.Benefit
Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4
Benefit Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6,8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
The Pathfinder version omits the bolded sentence. I don't know if the omission was purposeful or inadvertant.
EDIT: Or what the Hero Lab guy said. :)
I don't have any more rules to refer to, but it seems to make sense to allow it to be taken more than once, I do not see any balance issue with it if applied to a different natural weapon.
it can be taken multiple times for different natural attacks. I've seen pathfinder adventures with monsters with the feat multiple times.
I won't advocate using adventures as a rule guideline, but I agree in this case it seems reasonable, and can think of no reason to have that last line conciously deleted from the description.
When the feat says 'choose one of the creature's natural attack forms', that means a type of natural attack. Not one specific natural attack.
What I mean is if you have a Bite, Claw, Claw, you can take Improved Natural Attack: Bite, and Improved Natural Attack: Claw. But you do NOT need to take Improved Natural Attack: Claw a second time to have it's effects apply to the second claw attack.
It's exactly like any regular feat that applies to a weapon.
ie Weapon Focus Shortsword
or Improved Critial Shortsword.if you wanted to dual wield and have both shortswords have those benefits, you wouldn't take both feats AGAIN. just taking it once for 'shortsword', or in the case of natural attacks, 'claw', is enough.
:P
:)
I am mainly asking about what you said in your 2nd paragraph. You show that you have to take the feat twice if you want to apply once to claws and once to bite.
But if you read the feat in the Bestiary, it doesn't specify that you can take this feat more than once. If you go by the feat per RAW, it looks like you can't take it more than once. Doesn't say you can't, but it also doesn't say you can. Like I mentioned in the OP, Imp Nat armor DOES state that you can take that feat multiple times, whereas, Imp Nat attack does not.
But as Joana said, where 3.5 has it in bold; Pathfinder leaves it out completely. Who knows why at this point.
@Mathias: Thanks for all the answers on the Lone Wolf boards, Hero Lab guy! ;)
And, personally, I do agree with all of you on this. I do think most (if not all) are probably playing it that way. But it would be great to know if there is an official ruling on this.
It is strange that Pathfinder would leave out part of the feat from 3.5.
Regarding Improved Natural Attack, I think that comparing it to Improved Natural Armor isn't a very good idea because the natural attack feat is for just that, an attack. The armor feat is just to armor class.
i think a better comparison would be improved natural attack and improved critical. improved critical does give a significant bonus, i think, to a particular weapons deadliness (and very worthy of a feat). it can only apply once to a weapon but can be taken for multiple weapons. that's how i see improved natural attack..although as you said, we are in agreement about the meaning of imp. natural attack, but as the feat itself doesn't clarify either way, it could be seen as ambiguous.
however, in this case, i think it a matter of common sense, personally. if someone want's to be strictly RAW, which is silly, in my belief, then they'll have to decide which way it means. it's very possible to have a game that goes by RAW, but also incorporates exceptions to the rule as needed to improve gameplay or clarify a misunderstanding. in this case..the feat just isn't clear, from an extremely literal and by-the-very-letter-of-the-rules standpoint. sucks to be them. :P
perhaps an official pathfinder source will notice this thread and offer some more authoritative clarification. otherwise, i'd probably suggest common sense and operating by the spirit and intent of the rule, than by the letter, at times.
+1
This was an item I was having with Hero Labs. When you choose the feat, it zeros out. So I asked them about it and they brought it up about how it doesn't specifically state you can take it multiple times. Since that's the case, I figured I would get some point of views on it.
Thanks!
This was an item I was having with Hero Labs. When you choose the feat, it zeros out. So I asked them about it and they brought it up about how it doesn't specifically state you can take it multiple times. Since that's the case, I figured I would get some point of views on it.
Keep in mind that the folks at Hero Lab are going to do their best to only program to the rules as written. If you want to house rule something in, that is what the editor is for. Just go into the editor and make a "New(Copy)" feat and copy INA. Then change the setting from Unique or Add Once to No and you can take it as much as you want.
Until there is an official errata or FAQ I do not think they will be making changes to the main program... and for the most part I would not want them to. Allowing another company to change the base rules instead of the Pathfinder folks is what you could call a slippery slope.
This was an item I was having with Hero Labs. When you choose the feat, it zeros out. So I asked them about it and they brought it up about how it doesn't specifically state you can take it multiple times. Since that's the case, I figured I would get some point of views on it.Keep in mind that the folks at Hero Lab are going to do their best to only program to the rules as written. If you want to house rule something in, that is what the editor is for. Just go into the editor and make a "New(Copy)" feat and copy INA. Then change the setting from Unique or Add Once to No and you can take it as much as you want.
Until there is an official errata or FAQ I do not think they will be making changes to the main program... and for the most part I would not want them to. Allowing another company to change the base rules instead of the Pathfinder folks is what you could call a slippery slope.
Yes. I totally understand that. Please understand, I'm not bashing Hero Labs in any way. I think it's an awesome product. It was just an issue that I didn't understand at the time, so I asked about it here and I believe you were the one that directed me towards their forums. (Thanks for that by the way!) They made a solid point on the feat so I thought I would bring it on here. The issue is basically RAI, and I know there's no way they can update software based on that. Which is perfectly fine but I just wanted some feedback on how it's mostly being handled seeing how it's not in RAW. It's obviously not critical, as the adjustment can easily be made on paper, but I do find it to be an interesting (and confusing) issue. (Even moreso than I thought!)
(That's what I get for thinking! It cost me every time, dangit!) :p
LOL. No worries. I did not take your comments as bashing, and hope I did not come off as too much of a dork in my answer as that was not the intent.
What I was trying to get at is it is really easy to make the change for yourself if you want by copying what they currently have already done in the editor. That way you do not have to make the change on your character sheet every time you print it out.
I do think that in the long run this feat will be clarified to work just like weapon focus does... but as I don't work for Paizo my thoughts of the game are not always the same as that of The Powers That Be. But most of the time I really like how they think. /grin
Not at all! I totally see where you're coming from. And I appreciate the info on how to edit it myself. I never dealt with the editor but I'll give it a shot.
Thanks a bunch, Thazar!
Improved Natural Attack [General]
Prerequisite
Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.Benefit
Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4
Benefit Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6,8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.The Pathfinder version omits the bolded sentence. I don't know if the omission was purposeful or inadvertant.
EDIT: Or what the Hero Lab guy said. :)
I've just posted this issue on the Bestiary PDF Errata thread here, quoting your post above as a reference.
Let's hope to have an official answer soon. For the time being, I will personally use the 'house-ruled' version (can be taken muliple times for different Natural Attacks), since it seems the most logical solution for me.
Just my 2c.
Hey cool, thanks Wraith! I'll have to keep an eye on that one.
From the thread The Wraith linked to:
That is indeed an error; you can't take Improved Natural Attack more than once per attack type, but you CAN take it multiple times per attack.According to this thread, there is a possible omission in the description of the Improved Natural Attack Feat on page 315.
The feat is missing a 'Special' entry in order to be taken multiple times for different kind of Natural Attacks (like, for example, Weapon Focus does). This feature was included in the 3.x version, but is amiss in the Pathfinder version.
Basically, as the rules are currently written, a creature could not take both Improved Natural Attack (Claws) and Improved Natural Attack (Bite), since the feat cannot be taken twice (by RAW).