| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
On page 63 of the Core book, it indicates that paladins will usually get a Heavy Horse or a Pony (although a few other options are listed).
The heavy horse is a regulary horse with the Advanced Simple template. Does this template also apply to any animal the paladin chooses? In the very least, does it apply to the pony?
Not really sure about that...
But it'll have the benefits of being the same as an animal companion for a Druid the same level. Even when you first get the mount it'll have
5 HD, BAB +3, Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +1, 5 skills, 3 feats, +2 Nat armor, +1 Str/Dex, Evasion, and an Ability score increase
That'll make even a pony formidable.
Not really sure about that...
But it'll have the benefits of being the same as an animal companion for a Druid the same level. Even when you first get the mount it'll have
5 HD, BAB +3, Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +1, 5 skills, 3 feats, +2 Nat armor, +1 Str/Dex, Evasion, and an Ability score increase
That'll make even a pony formidable.
It just seems like an unfair advantage in picking a horse over something similar like a camel.
The advanced template gives +2 natural AC and +4 to all ability scores... that's a pretty darn good benefit.
Since paladins are typically a very matial/front-line class ... beefing up the mounts seems appropriate. The advanced template does this well, but it seems to me it should apply to all mounts... not just horses. I'm fairly certain the rules indicate that only horses get this advantage, but I was wondering if a designer could comment of that was an oversight or not, in not giving the template to all paladin mounts?
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This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level."
you use the horse entry on druid animal companions
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 6**, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
**for being paladins mount
then you get the 4th level abilities
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained.
then it gets the perks of being a companion
(5 hd, 2 natural armor, ect)
thats all you get. no templates, no bestiary, no anything else (except the specific features on the animal companion table and paladin class features).
This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level."
you use the horse entry on druid animal companions
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 6**, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
**for being paladins mountthen you get the 4th level abilities
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained.
then it gets the perks of being a companion
(5 hd, 2 natural armor, ect)thats all you get. no templates, no bestiary, no anything else (except the specific features on the animal companion table and paladin class features).
Except that the Bestiary defines the Heavy Horse as "a Horse with the Advanced simple template" ... meaning that for a Medium Paladin, the typical mount is "a Horse with the Advanced simple template" that then functions as a Druid's animal companion.
I read that to mean: A heavy horse is a larger horse whose game stats are the same as a "regular" horse with the Advanced template applied. You use those stats as the basis for the ongoing benefits of the Paladin's mount (unlike the Druid, who only uses a "regular" Horse).
To answer the OP, no, only the Heavy Horse gets the template because that is not *actually* a templated creature; it is using the template as a shortcut to squeeze a 90% similar creature into the Bestiary on the 2-page space allotted to "Horse" and "Horse, Pony".
Either that, or the Paladin's mount should be corrected in errata to read simply "Horse" instead of "Heavy Horse" if it is intended to be the same as the Druid's Horse entry.
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i hate the post eating monster
long story short giving the horse the free template makes it a hands down better choice and unbalances the options
also there arent any rules for that as a animal companion, and i'd assume you cant add a new companion to the list
the only difference is no extra freebies (which you actually do get via druid animal companion)
there is no reason to pull out the bestiary. does it say "look in bestiary"? it DOES reference druid animal companions.
there is no reason to pull out the bestiary. does it say "look in bestiary"? it DOES reference druid animal companions.
I believe there is a "need" to reference the bestiary since the Core Rulebok text says "This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin)..."
The text does NOT say "This mount is usually a horse (for a Medium paladin)..."
The animal companions only list the stats for "Horse" and not "Horse, Heavy".
Accordingly... the Bestiary does reference what a heavy horse is.
Rather than add a complete stat block for an animal companion heavy horse, they have basically just told us to use the animal companion horse and add the advanced template.
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there is no reason to pull out the bestiary. does it say "look in bestiary"? it DOES reference druid animal companions.I believe there is a "need" to reference the bestiary since the Core Rulebok text says "This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin)..."
The text does NOT say "This mount is usually a horse (for a Medium paladin)..."
The animal companions only list the stats for "Horse" and not "Horse, Heavy".
Accordingly... the Bestiary does reference what a heavy horse is.
Rather than add a complete stat block for an animal companion heavy horse, they have basically just told us to use the animal companion horse and add the advanced template.
well if you want pony/camel riders to get the short end of the stick feel free to play it that way.
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It could be that the 4th level advancement effectively makes a horse into a heavy horse, so that a 5th level paladin always start with a "heavy horse." This is how I've always understood it. One of the previous posters makes a good point that everything a player needs to stat up a pally and his mount should be in the Core rulebook...
It is important to remember that the Core Rulebook and Bestiary were not released at the exact same time. Occasionally there are differences between the two.
I think that the paladin's mount is powerful enough counting exactly as an animal companion that there is no need to apply the Advanced template across the board to them.
The wording of Heavy warhorse is likely a remnant of 3.5 where the only difference between heavy and light was a step up in dice damage, +2 Str, and speed.
The paladins mount is just like a druids horse mount.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
It is important to remember that the Core Rulebook and Bestiary were not released at the exact same time. Occasionally there are differences between the two.
I think that the paladin's mount is powerful enough counting exactly as an animal companion that there is no need to apply the Advanced template across the board to them.
The wording of Heavy warhorse is likely a remnant of 3.5 where the only difference between heavy and light was a step up in dice damage, +2 Str, and speed.
I am now suspecting that the inclusion of the "heavy" reference may have been an oversight when they edited the 3.5 material that referenced a heavy warhorse and a warpony. By removing the "war" verions of the animals, and then giving an extra boost only to the horse via the "heavy(advanced)" template seems incorrect.
By RAW, a paladin's horse gets the advanced template.
By RAI, I suspect that they did not intend to "upgrade" only the horse.
I still believe all paladin mounts should get the advanced template, although I doubt that was the intent.
Could we possibly get a comment on this from Paizo staff? Was the inclusion of the word "heavy" in the paladin's summon mount, divine bond ability intentional? (I'm not necessarily looking for the reasoning/justificaiton if is intentional.)
By RAW, a paladin's horse gets the advanced template.Err no.
If you can't find a listing logic says you use the closest thing but if want to get technical by paladins don't get any horse mount because there is no "Heavy Horse" listed.
Buy hey, ask your GM, maybe he's a softy.
No, no, they just get a really fat normal horse.
By RAW, a paladin's horse gets the advanced template.Err no.
If you can't find a listing logic says you use the closest thing but if want to get technical by paladins don't get any horse mount because there is no "Heavy Horse" listed.
Buy hey, ask your GM, maybe he's a softy.
But it does indeed reference "Heavy Horse". Heavy Horse is defined in the Bestiary, and the Bestiary is a supporting source for the Animal Companion stats. Going by your logic, Boar's would not get Ferocity since it references the Bestiary, Big Cat's wouldn't get grab, pounce or rake, Crocodiles wouldn't get death roll, grab or sprint, etc...
Or, are you saying that we should ignore the reference to "Heavy Horse" because it doesnt say: "This mount is usually a heavy horse (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) (for a Medium paladin) or a pony..."?
I do highly suspect that the inclusion of "heavy" was an unedited mistake when altering the 3.5 text.
However, it can't be ignored that it specifically mentions a heavy horse, and the rules (albiet the Bestiary, which is used as a reference for the other animal companions) does indeed define a heavy horse.
Anyways... we are just arguing semantics... and regardless of how anyone wants to determine the "correct" RAW, I think the point of the matter is the inclusion of the word "heavy" is confusing and perhaps misleading and would be very helpful if Paizo could clarify this.
(On a side note, I am not looking for "ammunition" to use against a DM. I am looking for the "exact" rules that I can code into my character generator)
i agree with the "you get a fat horse"
+1
Animal companions do not gain templets. By raw it says it works just like a druids companion. If ya look at druids companions on page 54 it tell you just what you gain.
Your companion will not match up to the bestiary stats. They never do. You have a heavy warhorse and his stats on on page 54. If it is not listed on page 54 your warhorse does not have it.
It really is that simple.
Animal companions do not gain templets. By raw it says it works just like a druids companion. If ya look at druids companions on page 54 it tell you just what you gain.
Your companion will not match up to the bestiary stats. They never do. You have a heavy warhorse and his stats on on page 54. If it is not listed on page 54 your warhorse does not have it.
It really is that simple.
^This.
Animal Companions and Paladin mounts only get what is listed on the Animal Companion info.
Period.
Animal companions do not gain templets.
Except for paladin mounts which do gain templates. Specifically, Celestial.
Yes and uses the words {gains} and is clearly worded and spelled out that this is an exception. Where as the warhorse does not. By RAW you have a horse mount listed on page 54.
Animal companions do not gain templets. By raw it says it works just like a druids companion. If ya look at druids companions on page 54 it tell you just what you gain.
Your companion will not match up to the bestiary stats. They never do. You have a heavy warhorse and his stats on on page 54. If it is not listed on page 54 your warhorse does not have it.
It really is that simple.
^This.
Animal Companions and Paladin mounts only get what is listed on the Animal Companion info.
Period.
I agree that is RAI. But, if you are applying RAW You can't look only at 1 rule and ignore another rule. Why does it reference "heavy"? How can you ignore this reference when making a RAW argument?
Anyways, I agree and support that the intent was for Paladins to just use the stats for a normal horse. Since I am convinced now that the "heavy" reference is a typo, then I will post that in the errata thread.
I'm done reading/commenting on this thread since there is nothing new that I can say, and seeing people trying to make a rules argument by selectively choosing to ignore other rules, is frustrating.
For now I'll just assume the horse weighs 50% more than normal :)
I am not ignoring it, I am using it as written. It states
"The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6. "
As you see it clearly states the difference from a normal druid mount , the int of six so by Raw it gains
Horse
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained.
And an int of 6
that is it by RAW that is what you gain, now if you can show me where it states you add the advanced templet you would be correct, however it does not say such a thing so no you do not gain it by RAW.
Paging Jason Buhlman..Jason Buhlman to this thread please
Paging Jason Buhlman..Jason Buhlman to this thread please
Or, to post #586 of Wraith's errata thread:
Yes, the books are all printed now. But it would nice to have an acknowledgement that where is says - 'functions as a druids animal companion' - it just means use the levelling table and apply to choice of mount from EITHER Animal Companion list OR Bestiary.
Umm no, it says just what it means, the Animal companions do not match up to the bestiary, you gain an Animal companion just as a druid except with an Int of 6. It spells out any exceptions.
The book is plain and clear on what you gain.
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Kor is starting to sway me... why? I'm playing a level 14 paladin with the weapon enhancement divine bond, and let me tell you... it is infinitely more powerful than the paladin mount divine bond. So someone slapping the heavy horse template on a 12HD horse... (for paladin 14) wouldn't be gamebreaking... meh.
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I really hope we can have some resolution that supports the genre and style of the game.
I know the Core Rulebook had to have animal stats since there was no Bestiary at the time. The Druid horse has marginally worse stats than the riding horse in bestiary.
But there is no way it be that a knight-type (paladin or cavalier) should be going into battle on a palfrey! (aka riding horse)
Where is my destrier!
Animal companions are just that - primarily companions (like wizard familiars). Although many can be mounts as well, that is secondary.
Knight-types are fully committed to taking the mount into the thick of melee. It doesn't seem right that at 10th level the druid's horse buddy is the same as paladin/cavaliers battle stead.
Yes, the books are all printed now. But it would nice to have an acknowledgement that where is says - 'functions as a druids animal companion' - it just means use the levelling table and apply to choice of mount from EITHER Animal Companion list OR Bestiary.
Please, after 40 years can we finally get mounted knight right! It's great the animals are more survivable now (having literally been in gaming wilderness for so long). Please let this be the time for the noble stead to shine!
a druid's companion IS uber, and so is a pally's. they aren't being gimped, and its still leaps and bounds better than a normal horse.
a druid SHOULD be the best pet class, and a pally get en equaly powerful mount
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Kor is starting to sway me... why? I'm playing a level 14 paladin with the weapon enhancement divine bond, and let me tell you... it is infinitely more powerful than the paladin mount divine bond. So someone slapping the heavy horse template on a 12HD horse... (for paladin 14) wouldn't be gamebreaking... meh.
Me'thinks you don't play to the benefits of the mount. Animal companions are incredibly powerful tools, for both combat as well as RP.
The Equipment chapter of the Core Rulebook (p. 159) also lists the "Horse, Heavy" and "Horse, Heavy (Combat Trained)" in the price lists, along with "Horse, Light", "Horse, Light (Combat Trained)", "Pony", and "Pony (Combat Trained)" as options under the general "Horse" heading.
The Bestiary in more than one place uses templates as a short-hand for minor variations of a main entry (see the "Bear, Grizzly" entry on p. 31, for example; there, a Polar Bear = Grizzly Bear + Advanced Template and the Black Bear = Grizzly Bear + Young Template).