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I realized lately that, hey, fun time, I've never played a gishy type. Well, Magus isn't available yet, and man oh man does the Dragon Disciple look awesome for PF compared to it's crappy inbred 3.X cousin!
Well, the game I was gonna play in got scrapped for another AP: Council of Thieves. This looks like a wonderfully morally ambiguous urban society subterfuge play, which to me would be absolutely fun to stand out from the crowd as the Lawful Good guy in.
So, scanning through the various DD threads here, I came up with this (lotsa detail below, so I'm gonna stick it in a spoiler to help those who wanna skip it all in the future quotes):
Race: Half-Orc
Favored Class: Paladin
Stats (20ptbuy): Str-(15+2race)17, Dex-12, Con-12, Int-12, Wis-10, Cha-15
Traits: Westcrown Firebrand (required regional trait), Magical Knack-Sorcerer
Level/Feat/*BonusFeat*/Ability Choice Breakdown
1-Paladin - Intimidating Prowess
2-Paladin
3-Paladin - Weapon Focus (????)
4-Sorcerer - *Eschew Materials*, Bronze Dragon Bloodline
5-Sorcerer - Still Spell
6-Dragon Disciple
7-Dragon Disciple - Dazzling Display, *Power Attack*
8-Dragon Disciple
9-Dragon Disciple - Skill Focus (Intimidate)
10-Dragon Disciple - *Blind Fight*
11-Dragon Disciple - Persuasive
12-Dragon Disciple
13-Dragon Disciple - Vital Strike, *Improved Initiative*
14-Dragon Disciple
15-Dragon Disciple - Flyby Attack
16-Eldrich Knight - *Improved Vital Strike*
17-Eldrich Knight - Improved Overrun
18-Eldrich Knight
19-Eldrich Knight - Greater Overrun
20-Eldrich Knight - *Greater Vital Strike*
At low levels this guy fights like a standard Pally. Lower Mid-Level his intimidation starts to seriously grow, and with Dazzling Display he becomes a fear-machine. At 10th level he gets Blind Sense and Blind Fight, so my Batman Imitation becomes complete as I am now scary as all get out AND running around in the dark beating people. Finally, at 14th level he gets wings, so we move to the skirmishing specialty.
All the while, getting an INSANE AC due to wearing full plate and being a dragon disciple. Thank you Still Spell. The few spells he will use will be self-buffers.
I came up with quite a detailed story for this guy, more than I can recall doing in a long time. It seems like he'll be very fun to play. He has no real weaknesses, except for a rather low reflex save, and many strengths, growing quite versatile over time. He will undoubtedly be the most intimidating person I can think of.
So, here's where I need help:
1. What should I Weapon Focus on for Dazzling Display? On the one hand, I was thinking a 1-handed weapon so I could beef up my insane AC even higher with a magical heavy shield. On the other hand, I'm a melee with Power Attack, so 2-handed is seriously something I should consider.
2. Are there better options for 17th and 19th than Improved and Greater Overrun? I don't know if I can use Vital Strike for the AoO's they provoke or not. I figured flying over people to knock them down was a pretty cool mental image, but...maybe not? I heard Council of Thieves doesn't go up to high levels like the other AP's, but maybe the DM will continue with modules after...
3. Any other suggestions? I thought this out a looooot, but maybe you guys have some ideas I didn't think of.
4. I don't play humans. Don't bother suggesting it. Seriously. Don't even waste the .00000002 cents worth of server capacity bothering.
Council of Thieves caps at 13.
Arcane Armor Training and Mastery would probably be good for you. Better than Persuasive and Skill Focus (Intimidate). Much better than Still Spell. Council of Thieves has an extremely large focus on medium creatures as enemies, so you won't be having to recoup the -4 on intimidate with any abilities except in the few and far between situations.
I'm not kidding. Not a lot of large creatures at all.
If that doesn't help,
Council of Thieves caps at 13.
Arcane Armor Training and Mastery would probably be good for you. Better than Persuasive and Skill Focus (Intimidate). Much better than Still Spell. Council of Thieves has an extremely large focus on medium creatures as enemies, so you won't be having to recoup the -4 on intimidate with any abilities except in the few and far between situations.
I'm not kidding. Not a lot of large creatures at all. ** spoiler omitted **
If that doesn't help, ** spoiler omitted **
With only 2 levels of Sorcerer it would take WAY too long to get Arcane Armor Training and Mastery. I'd have like 7 levels unarmored, and five more after that in lame light armor. :-(
Thanks for the tip with Intimidate. Figured scaring devils is a little difficult. But the intimidate stuff you told me is helpful, so, really, what should I do with those feat slots then?
And the Persuasive becomes +4. So it's even more overkill, actually. :)
Council of Thieves caps at 13.
Arcane Armor Training and Mastery would probably be good for you. Better than Persuasive and Skill Focus (Intimidate). Much better than Still Spell.
I disagree. AAT/AAM only does for 20% spell failure, heavily restricting the armor choices of an obviously melee heavy build - crank the AC into the sky! Also, there are a number of useful verbal only spells that can be used regardless of armor (Darkness for one, good for a half-orc).
The dragon disciple is distinctly better than the 3.5 version, and this is a pretty cool build at that. Your BAB at level 20 will be 16 and caster level would be 13- not the golden standard but defiantly playable. I'm not sure what the Magus will be power wise but your skeleton is already better- you've got a better BAB than a straight Magus and you'll be casting sixth level spells, which is about on par. Your character should probably be the designated tank, as he really won't fill the pure caster role. You won't be all that impressive next to a fighter of pure paladin though. Well, number wise, turning into a dragon is pretty impressive.
I'm assuming a gold or silver dragon bloodline?
I think he said Bronze.
If you're worried about Reflex Saves, throw in some Lightning Reflexes. Also, you'll be adding Cha to Saves, right? Maybe Extra Smiting?
The dragon disciple is distinctly better than the 3.5 version, and this is a pretty cool build at that. Your BAB at level 20 will be 16 and caster level would be 13- not the golden standard but defiantly playable. I'm not sure what the Magus will be power wise but your skeleton is already better- you've got a better BAB than a straight Magus and you'll be casting sixth level spells, which is about on par. Your character should probably be the designated tank, as he really won't fill the pure caster role. You won't be all that impressive next to a fighter of pure paladin though. Well, number wise, turning into a dragon is pretty impressive.
I'm assuming a gold or silver dragon bloodline?
That was kind of my goal...tank with a little casting. He'll be harder to play around levels 4-6, but it should be fun. It took a lot of tweaking to finish with 16BAB and that fourth attack (useless I know, but with enough buffing, maybe not?)
And bronze dragon. Devils aren't electricity-proof or resistant. Plus I wanted Lawful Good without being Gold.
How about BARD instead of sorcerer?
also I built one like this and it will go paladin 5 Bard 1 DD
Click on it here!
He is snafu fubar!
I don't see the benefit of going bard here- your build (Paladin5/Bard1/Dragon Disciple10/Eldritch Knight4 I assume) Has a BaB of 16 (same) caster level of 11 (less) and 4th level spells (much less). I don't see the extra skill points and very limited inspirational abilities to be worth it. That's just my opinion of course.
Although Bard10/Dragon Disciple10 could be very cool-almost full bard casting and medium BaB (multiclassing loses you one) decent HP and good skills makes a very interesting Jack of All Trades.
I'd probably switch the feats around:
P1- Weapon Focus
P3- Power Attack
S1- Eschew Materials
S2- Dazzling Display
DD2- Improved Initiative, Still Spell
DD4- Vital Strike
DD5- Toughness
DD6- Intimidating Prowess
DD8- Skill Focus (Intimidate)*, Quicken Spell
*- or some other feat, such as Quick Draw
Because of the natural armor bonus gained from sorcerer/dragon disciple levels, a shield isn't really needed for a high AC; go for the increased damage. Vital Strike is a standard action, so it doesn't apply to AoOs; it is useful for rounds where you're moving and don't get full attacks (and/or in combination with true strike).
Some advice on spells:
1) Take true strike at sorcerer 1; it has no somatic component, so it can be cast in armor without chance of spell failure; flare is another spell without a somatic component; both of these are going to be your bread-and-butter spells until 8th level (paladin 3/sorcerer 2/dragon disciple 3, when you gain 2nd level spells) if you are set on wearing heavy armor. Identify is probably a good choice as your second 1st level known spell, since you can usually cast it in a situation that lets you take off your armor first; alternately, shocking grasp fits the bronze dragon bloodline (and benefits from the Bloodline Arcana).
2) Mage armor (bonus spell at 6th level, paladin 3/sorcerer 2/dragon disciple 1) is not that useful, but do pick up enlarge person at 7th level and false life at 8th level (with resist energy as a bonus). False life is 1 hour/level, so cast it at the start of the day before donning armor; use a Still enlarge person on yourself before entering a tough combat.
3) Because casting in armor with Still Spell raises the spell level by one, your first spells of a given level should probably be medium and long term buffs (i.e., heroism, magic circle against evil, and stoneskin) instead of short-term or immediate spells (i.e., haste, lightning bolt, and black tentacles).
4) Invest in a spell storing weapon ASAP. This lets you mitigate the restriction of 3) to some extent.
5) Invest in a metamagic rod of Still Spell when you hit 13th level (paladin 3/sorcerer 2/dragon disciple 8), so that you can cast Quickened spells in armor without chance of failure.
Although Bard10/Dragon Disciple10 could be very cool-almost full bard casting and medium BaB (multiclassing loses you one) decent HP and good skills makes a very interesting Jack of All Trades.
If I went bard, I had a totally different build in mind than DD. If I went skill-monkey, I had another one in mind. I tend to, before startinga new game, come up with five or six builds to juggle with in my mind and settle on one of those when the rest of the group fills out their roles. This way I'm prepared for any leftover need. This build is so far my preference, but if there's two other people who want to play tanks, for example, I'll not be the DD...we'll see next week :)
(A lot of good stuff)
A lot of the reasons I did the feat order the way I did.
1. I didn't get Weapon Focus right away so I could see what weapons were readily available before I choose that. I statted my 1st-level guy out with mostly free equipment; clubs, wooden stakes, etc., along with a lame hide armor. This will let me save up for my first masterwork equipment. I'll rip off my basic equipment from the first medium character I kill. I don't BUY anything less than Masterwork unless I have to. (Plus, this guy has been living in a cave with a dragon for the last ten years of his life in the backstory, so it kinda makes sense.)
2. I have three bonus feats from DD to choose, and so I made Power Attack the first. That's why it waits so long to pop in. Still Spell is pretty necessary to get ASAP.
3. That's an awful long time to wait to get Intimidating Prowess. I wanted intimidation to be a big part of this character.
Great spell suggestions, by the way. Most of them I already had planned, but I'll definitely be moving True Strike up earlier, due to the whole no somantic factor.
The Spell Storing weapon was brilliant. I can't wait to work Shocking Grasp into it like you said.
@Stefan - Multiclassing is just a pain in the butt with arcane/tank combos until you get into prestige classes. I won't really be able to use most of my spells in combat until I get 2nd level spell slots and can use Still Spell. That's not until 9th level. By 7th, though, I'll have Dazzling Display and Power Attack, which will give me a nice AoE ability and some nice single-combat output, which should help.
@Dragonborn3 - it's really a storyline thing. He's not physically descended from a dragon. (I don't want to write in which grandpa was a dragon, if he's 1/4 orc or 1/4 human with half of the other and dragon, blah blah blah...so I wrote in that) he's gotten his abilities from a dragon that fostered him and infused him with some of his blood when he was dying. Very Dragonheart rip-off, I know.
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@Dragonborn3 - it's really a storyline thing. He's not physically descended from a dragon. (I don't want to write in which grandpa was a dragon, if he's 1/4 orc or 1/4 human with half of the other and dragon, blah blah blah...so I wrote in that) he's gotten his abilities from a dragon that fostered him and infused him with some of his blood when he was dying. Very Dragonheart rip-off, I know.
That sounds very close to some bloodline fluuf I posted in the "Missing Bloodlines" thread in order to explain why the "bloodlines" didn't mean your magic was genetic.
Your idea sounds cool to me, and I hope your extensive back story gets rewarded(and is, in and of itself, rewarding)!
Your idea sounds cool to me, and I hope your extensive back story gets rewarded(and is, in and of itself, rewarding)!
Thanks, man. I wasn't gonna put it the OP, 'cause it's not prevalent, but since you mentioned it... here's some backstory fluff, if you're interested.
Oth Dragonson never knew his parents. The half-orc wasn't sure whether he was the result of a strange love-inspired tryst or a brutal rape, but whatever the case, this was clear: his mother was not proud of his birth.
Not understanding the nature of metallic dragons compared to their chromatic cousins, she left the newborn as a sacrifice outside of the lair of an old bronze dragon, along with a pittance of treasure normally brought to him each month as a precautionary tribute from her small fishing village.
The dragon, Slathalinar Dimalsvir (Draconic for Slayer of Evil), took pity on the child. Having his children grown and departed centuries ago, and with the death of his mate, he was alone. Figuring the youth to be a mere drop in the bucket as far as time investment (for humans, orcs and other humanoids had such short lifespans indeed), he decided to take in and raise the child.
He named the boy Oth (Draconic for "tooth") for he was even smaller than Slath's smallest fangs, and for the fight in him that the boy displayed as he grew older. Slath regaled Oth throughout his childhood of the importance of honor, integrity, rightousness, etc., and told him about the nation of Cheliax's fall from grace into the shadow it is today.
Oth spent most of his days in the lair of his "grandfather" (as he tended to call Slath). Whenever he needed basic supplies that were not available locally, however, the boy would travel to nearby villages. On one such trip, when Oth was nine, he saw a slaving party attempting to catch a halfling child. Being taught by Slath on how this was an abhorrent wrong, he picked up a stick and charged the older, stronger men. Sadly, his raw outrage and anger were no match for them, and they beat the child to within an inch of his life and left him to die.
Later that eve, Slath found the child when he went out in search for dinner. The dragon was at a loss for what to do, but he knew that his race's blood held strong power, and he had heard his own father tell him of how a Silver that gave it's own blood to save an elf it had mated with. Slath cut his own flesh and poured the flowing blood on the child, bathing him in it before bringing Oth to the lair to nurse to health.
The recovery, while not instantaneous, was remarkably fast. He was left with no scar, nor even a hint that he was ever injured, but there were physical changes. All of Oth's hair fell out, and he was left with total alopecia, and his skin lightened to a bronze color similar to Slath's scales. The blood of his "grandfather" had left it's mark.
Ten years later, Slath left for his once-a-decade visit to his children in the far off River Kingdoms, having postponed it previously due to Oth's injuries, telling Oth to go out and learn of the real world. The young half-orc sets off to Westcrown, the nearest city, where his grandfather told him so many stories of the great, ancient kingdom before it's fall.
There's personality stuff too, but I already wrote a lot. Basically, he's naive, short-tempered, and impulsive, (he is a half-orc) but he works very hard to keep that under control (he was raised by a long-sighted dragon after all). Still, he does tend to lose his head around evildoers. He has the typical overidealism of youth. As well, due to his strange upbringing, he's a bit lost in the "real world", and tends to handle things very formally (as that's how he was taught to speak to strangers). Once he learns the "truth" about Cheliax, he will undoubtedly strike forth immediately to "right this travesty of a nation" regardless of the personal cost.
(A lot of good stuff)A lot of the reasons I did the feat order the way I did.
1. I didn't get Weapon Focus right away so I could see what weapons were readily available before I choose that. I statted my 1st-level guy out with mostly free equipment; clubs, wooden stakes, etc., along with a lame hide armor. This will let me save up for my first masterwork equipment. I'll rip off my basic equipment from the first medium character I kill. I don't BUY anything less than Masterwork unless I have to. (Plus, this guy has been living in a cave with a dragon for the last ten years of his life in the backstory, so it kinda makes sense.)
I usually have a primary weapon in mind when I create a combat-focused character, so I usually go for Weapon Focus to get that +1 on attack rolls at 1st level. Feel free to shift it to 3rd level, though.
2. I have three bonus feats from DD to choose, and so I made Power Attack the first. That's why it waits so long to pop in. Still Spell is pretty necessary to get ASAP.
I prefer to have Power Attack early (1st-3rd level) to boost damage; this is another reason I tend to take Weapon Focus at 1st level; if you're OK with waiting until 7th level for it, feel free to take it then and move Improved Initiative in place of Toughness. Still Spell (IMO) only becomes useful when you gain 2nd level spell slots; since this occurs at dragon disciple 3 (character level 8), I'd recommend taking it as your 7th level feat (which is where I placed it); this also lets you take Dazzling Display earlier.
3. That's an awful long time to wait to get Intimidating Prowess. I wanted intimidation to be a big part of this character.
I was focusing more on combat, with Intimidation being secondary (since the character will have a pretty good Cha and gain the class skill bonus with the first sorcerer level); feel free to move it back to 1st level.
New feat progression:
P1- Intimidating Prowess
P3- Weapon Focus
S1- Eschew Materials
S2- Dazzling Display
DD2- Power Attack, Still Spell
DD4- Vital Strike
DD5- Improved Initiative
DD6- Shatter Defenses or Improved Critical (if primary weapon is 18-20/x2 or 20/x4)
DD8- Skill Focus (Intimidate)*, Quicken Spell
*- or some other feat, such as Critical Focus (if Improved Critical was taken), Empower Spell, Quick Draw, Spell Focus, or Spell Penetration
If you have a rogue in the party (for Council of Thieves? possibly more than one), Shatter Defenses can have a huge effect in The Twice-Damned Prince (look, everyone's flat-footed; Sneak Attacks galore). Otherwise, improving your weapon critical potential is a possibility; don't bother unless the weapon's critical range/multiplier is 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 (it's not really worth it). Another option is Skill Focus or one of the other feats mentioned above.