I was adding to my wishlist for 3pp PFRPG products and notice there are not many print items.
Now personally I dislike PDFs. They are handy, but the grognard in me loves the feel and sound of that paper flipping through my hands. I can't hand a PDF around the table, and don't have the print/binding capabilities to make my own.
I'm sure this has been discussed before too, but couldn't find it.
Are there other sites that have PFRPG printed copies of these items? I haven't gone through Drive-thru yet for their stuff so I'm sure I'll find a little more, but I'm a one stop shop kind of guy so would rather pick them up from here, but I will browes others if needed.
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I personally like the way it's set up now. It allows me to get more 3PP stuff than I would if they came out in hard copy form. That being said, I tend to print my (smaller) PDFs and toss them in page protectors. If that doesn't work for you and you live in a university town, an on- or near-campus copy shop will generally do printing and binding work for much cheaper than Kinko's.
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I was adding to my wishlist for 3pp PFRPG products and notice there are not many print items.
While Super Genius Games is getting famous for releasing a Pathfinder pdf every week, and we plan to continue that, we're also moving into the print arena. Our first print book, the Adventurer's Handbook, is available now through the Paizo store. http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/s/superGeniusGames/pathfinderRPG/geniusGui des/compilations/v5748btpy8fn0/reviews#tabs
I suspect a lot of 3pp are moving forward toward print as quickly as the market and internal production makes realistic, but it does seem to be a slower process than it was in the 3.0 days. Of course a lot of companies got burned when the OGL market crashed, so there may also be greater caution.
In our case, this is just as fast as we can go to print.
I was adding to my wishlist for 3pp PFRPG products and notice there are not many print items.While Super Genius Games is getting famous for releasing a Pathfinder pdf every week, and we plan to continue that, we're also moving into the print arena. Our first print book, the Adventurer's Handbook, is available now through the Paizo store. http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/s/superGeniusGames/pathfinderRPG/geniusGui des/compilations/v5748btpy8fn0/reviews#tabs
I suspect a lot of 3pp are moving forward toward print as quickly as the market and internal production makes realistic, but it does seem to be a slower process than it was in the 3.0 days. Of course a lot of companies got burned when the OGL market crashed, so there may also be greater caution.
In our case, this is just as fast as we can go to print.
Which is in my list of books to buy already!
I live in a university hub (2 community colleges, 3 universitys in a 20 mile radius, and about 4-5 trade schools.) So I'm sure I could look into that binding idea (honestly never thought about it).
I know the OGL boom was intense... and 9/10 times not very well put together.
I have picked up the Sunken Empires book, and the quality was great.
So if I can find a cheap printer my PDF purchases may soar.
Printing is freakin' expensive for a small operation, and the profit margins on print on demand books is not that great unless you're ordering a larger quantity.
Yeah, printing is a sticky wicket when you're dealing with small runs. I'm looking into Lulu and others as a possiblity for being able to do printed copies of Acacia Games (link) products but I'm not terribly optimistic about it right now. I would need to be terribly confident about how well a product would sell before I would take the step to print it in advance. I know getting to that stage will probably take *me* a couple of years. I imagine a lot of other 3PPs are the same.
M
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I was adding to my wishlist for 3pp PFRPG products and notice there are not many print items.
Now personally I dislike PDFs. They are handy, but the grognard in me loves the feel and sound of that paper flipping through my hands. I can't hand a PDF around the table, and don't have the print/binding capabilities to make my own.
As someone who has worked in commercial printing and publishing for MANY years, I share your preference for a nice printed product, but as others have said, good professional quality printing is a big expense for a smaller company. The balance between PDF and print that companies like Super Genius have struck seems like a win win for everyone.
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I was adding to my wishlist for 3pp PFRPG products and notice there are not many print items.While Super Genius Games is getting famous for releasing a Pathfinder pdf every week, and we plan to continue that, we're also moving into the print arena. Our first print book, the Adventurer's Handbook, is available now through the Paizo store. http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/s/superGeniusGames/pathfinderRPG/geniusGui des/compilations/v5748btpy8fn0/reviews#tabs
Any news when available through distributors? Want to order it through my FLGS.
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As someone who has worked in commercial printing and publishing for MANY years, I share your preference for a nice printed product, but as others have said, good professional quality printing is a big expense for a smaller company.
Yeah, it can be. We did a lot of number crunching before we took the Adventurer's Handbook to print. I'm not a big fan of most of the POD samples I've seen, so AH is a traditional print product. The trick with that is, the more you print the less each copy costs. So you're always tempted by "print 10,000 copies, and they cost you only $1.50 each!" But that's still $15,000, and if you only sell 1,000 copies you lose your shirt.
But if you print 1,000 copies, they might run $3 each. (All these numbers are for narrative purposes, I'm not looking up any old print quotes.) That's twice as much per copy, cutting down your profit margin, but it's just a $3,000 expense. Of course if you only sell 100 copies, you lose your shirt. Also, if you sell 1,000 copies in a month, you have to think you should have printed more at the outset, but now you have to guess whether it's worth reprinting, and if so how many?
This is the stuff ulcers are made of. :D
The balance between PDF and print that companies like Super Genius have struck seems like a win win for everyone.
Thanks! So far, we are cautiously optimistic about the outcome. And unendingly pleased by fan support!
With Tripod Machine, I am focusing on keeping production costs very low. The PDF market works well for something like A Fistful of Denarii. I have just finished putting AFoD up on Lulu. While not terribly complicated, doing it right is somewhat involved. My plan is to continue to release in PDF first, then follow up with a Lulu option once it looks like sales will justify the effort.
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Any news when available through distributors? Want to order it through my FLGS.Nowish. If not now, in a couple of weeks when they update their inventories. Unless your FLGS's distributor decides not to carry it, which I can neither determine nor control, sadly.
Coolio. Thanks, Owen!
BTW, was reviewing your work on Advanced Gamemaster Guide published by Green Ronin. Good stuff, especially on speeding up play. Has Genius Games consider a similar supp for Pathfinder?
Lulu is a great way for a small 3PP to build a good sized print backlist of products. If one particular product does well as POD, you can maybe think about going to actually print versions. The name of the game in small 3PP is cashflow.
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Lulu is a great way for a small 3PP to build a good sized print backlist of products. If one particular product does well as POD, you can maybe think about going to actually print versions. The name of the game in small 3PP is cashflow.
+1. I've definitely been looking/ordering POD stuff to support my print fetish...er...taste.
Paizo even has a book on lulu
The Secrets of Sartova book was on their site.
Edit: I may need to turn in my nerd card lol... thought they only did PoD. First time I had visited their site was today.
Edit Edit: Sargava: The lost colony... I don't even know where I got Sartova from... long day.
Chief Technical Officer
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Paizo even has a book on lulu
The Secrets of Sartova book was on their site.
Edit: I may need to turn in my nerd card lol... thought they only did PoD. First time I had visited their site was today.
Paizo doesn't currently do any print-on-demand products (aside from a handful of review copies of some of our novels).
Lulu is now acting as a regular book retailer in addition to their POD business, so if you see Paizo products on there, they're the same regular retail releases from the same print runs as the ones we sell here.
(I don't know what "Secrets of Sartova" is, though.)
4WFG has currently two PDF releases that can be ordered POD via Lulu.com, "Phantasia Zoologica I: Dogs" and "Albion Armitage's Astounding Arsenal". We also have 5 books available in both print and PDF formats. The only non-print or POD products we have are our notable series of GM and Player Aides products, all in PDF.
Sean
4WFG
As stated by others, a small outfit can be destroyed by one miscalculated print run. All of the larger 3PP that published in the d20 days have either died or moved on to other things.
I mean, look at the main 3PP publishers left:
Green Ronin - Has a number of licenses, Song of Fire and Ice, Dragon Age, DC Adventures.
Goodman Games - Making 4E modules, and I heard a rumor they are making their own retro clone.
Mongoose - Also has a ton of licenses, Traveller, Earthdawn, RuneQuest.
Paizo - Pumping out Pathfinder adventures as fast as they can!
Malhavoc - Mostly retired from books, although dungeonaday.com is creating a fine 3.5 megadungeon that is easily converted to PF (includes a blog by Jason Bulmahn with advice on that.)
Everyone that I see producing Pathfinder is relatively small compared to most of the companies that can afford to print products. If you like what they are doing, tell your friends and buy their products. Eventually they will grow to fill the void.
Open Design, Rite Publishing, Super Genius Games, and others mentioned on this thread are all doing a fantastic job of expanding Pathfinder.
Linky?
Malhavoc - Mostly retired from books, although dungeonaday.com is creating a fine 3.5 megadungeon that is easily converted to PF (includes a blog by Jason Bulmahn with advice on that.)
It's not a printed book, but a website that is very nicely hyperlinked together. As an example, you can click on the map to take you to that rooms encounter. That encounter might have links to the monsters involved. It'll have links to each adjoining room. It'll even have links to the glossary or other notes.
Every weekday the dungeon expands, but levels 1-9 are already complete and could be years of gaming. It can be used as one mega dungeon, or each level could be split off on its own with some adaptation. Level 4 is worth looking at if you want to bend your players minds.
Very worth checking out.
Jon Brazer Enterprises is one of the few Pathfinder Compatible companies that does offset print runs, and I gotta tell you, they are problematic. The ones that are low cost have a slow turnaround time (among other problems) and the ones with a fast turnaround time can cost per book almost as much as the individual book's MSRP.
We're making changes in how we release products (and that will be very evident come fall), but right now we're encountering the same problems we had with our last book (only worse). So I am really wondering if we'll be able to get our book out by GenCon.
Compare to that to a PDF or POD release. The day after you finish the layout, you have sales. Plus you don't have the cost of a print run. PDF is considerably more attractive.
The downside to PDF/POF is volume. My first print book sold better in its first week than any previous release of mine has done in its lifetime (and I've been in operation for over a year). If you have patience (and upfront resources), print can really pay off. But like a previous poster said, one bad print run can sink a small 3pp.
Ok, If you want to support print products here the books that are available in print from Rite Publishing
Feats 101 $10.99
101 Magical Weapon Properties$10.99
I also have a print preorder available for
Book of Monster Temapltes $17.30+ USPS flat rate shipping you get the print copy 108 page Perfectbound softback b&W interior plus the pdf, and we do preorder exclusive preview every week.
There is a publicly available free preview at the paizo store and rpgnow,
This is my attempt to support Pathfinder as a 3PP with a print run, I have a very modest goal of 41 preorders by OCT 1st which will give me a modest print run of 250+ copies we have 10 preorders right now so I am roughly 25% of the way there.
We now have a print distribution partnership with Cubicle 7, I just sent them the Solicitation for a November print release of a very large Pathfinder Rpg product (I will talk about it when they talk about it)
@Rite Publishing - Isn't there going to be a print version of Coliseum Morpheuon available through Cubicle 7? Or is it going to be from Lulu? I can't wait to get my hands on that either way.
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...one bad print run can sink a small 3pp.
That risk doesn't go away as you grow either. One of the primary reasons GDW went out of business was because the success of their Desert Shield Fact Book (which quickly went through five printings with a total of more than 245,000 copies) led them to overprint the Gulf War Fact Book, which came out just *after* the Gulf War ended, leading to a financial meltdown.
I was adding to my wishlist for 3pp PFRPG products and notice there are not many print items.
Now personally I dislike PDFs. They are handy, but the grognard in me loves the feel and sound of that paper flipping through my hands. I can't hand a PDF around the table, and don't have the print/binding capabilities to make my own.
I'm sure this has been discussed before too, but couldn't find it.
Are there other sites that have PFRPG printed copies of these items? I haven't gone through Drive-thru yet for their stuff so I'm sure I'll find a little more, but I'm a one stop shop kind of guy so would rather pick them up from here, but I will browes others if needed.
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming has 5 print products available here at Paizo.com - The Book of Arcane Magic, The Book of Divine Magic, Paths of Power, Luven Lightfinger's Gear & Treasure Shop and Strategists & Tacticians.
Two of our PDF products are also available for order via PoD from Lulu - Phantasia Zoologica I: Dogs and Albion Armitage's Astounding Arsenal. Both are available as a PDF here at Paizo.com, too.
Robert
4WFG
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...one bad print run can sink a small 3pp.That risk doesn't go away as you grow either. One of the primary reasons GDW went out of business was because the success of their Desert Shield Fact Book (which quickly went through five printings with a total of more than 245,000 copies) led them to overprint the Gulf War Fact Book, which came out just *after* the Gulf War ended, leading to a financial meltdown.
Ouch. Sounds like a common error. Should companies always err on the side of small print jobs?
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Ouch. Sounds like a common error. Should companies always err on the side of small print jobs?...one bad print run can sink a small 3pp.That risk doesn't go away as you grow either. One of the primary reasons GDW went out of business was because the success of their Desert Shield Fact Book (which quickly went through five printings with a total of more than 245,000 copies) led them to overprint the Gulf War Fact Book, which came out just *after* the Gulf War ended, leading to a financial meltdown.
Printing too few copies isn't a great thing either—especially if it means your product is sold out right when it's getting the most attention. But if the only choice were way too many or way too few, printing way too few is definitely the better problem to have.
Here's a longer post covering some more of the challenges with print run sizing.
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Ouch. Sounds like a common error. Should companies always err on the side of small print jobs?...one bad print run can sink a small 3pp.That risk doesn't go away as you grow either. One of the primary reasons GDW went out of business was because the success of their Desert Shield Fact Book (which quickly went through five printings with a total of more than 245,000 copies) led them to overprint the Gulf War Fact Book, which came out just *after* the Gulf War ended, leading to a financial meltdown.Printing too few copies isn't a great thing either—especially if it means your product is sold out right when it's getting the most attention. But if the only choice were way too many or way too few, printing way too few is definitely the better problem to have.
Here's a longer post covering some more of the challenges with print run sizing.
Thanks, Vic! VERY eye-opening.
Another challenge facing us smaller publishers who are going to do print runs of their products is the fact that retailers are very hesitant to order any Pathfinder material that is not from Paizo. Many of them were burned badly when the d20 bubble burst and left all manner of product on their shelves that they could no longer sell because customer interest had waned. Couple that with the change to 4th edition and getting them to touch anything OGL-related is often akin to breeding elephants.
I saw this first hand when I was with Bastion Press. When the bubble burst our preorders plummeted. We went from selling 5000+ copies to selling only a few hundred copies because retailers simply quit ordering d20 supplements. One of the last Oathbound books we released, Mysteries of Arena, saw orders so low, we chose to do a POD run rather than risk printing a larger number and hope sales picked up.
The only way this trend is going to be reversed is by having gamers go to their preferred gaming retailer and ask that they support Pathfinder not only through Paizo but also the supporting publishers. Then they have to back up those words by following through and purchasing said items from that store.
My hope is that Torn Asunder: Critical Hits PFRPG Edition does well in the print market. How many I print will be determined by preorder numbers when the book is solicited for its October release. If you want to see this book in stores, you have to let the store owners know that you want it. :)
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Steve Creech
DragonWing Games
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The only way this trend is going to be reversed is by having gamers go to their preferred gaming retailer and ask that they support Pathfinder not only through Paizo but also the supporting publishers. Then they have to back up those words by following through and purchasing said items from that store.
Understood, Steve. I actually do that: I try to, as much as possible, order my print stuff through my FLGS. Interestingly, I wonder if distributors also have an impact. The manager of the FLGS has seen extremely few print 3PP stuff to even order, never mind customers asking for them.
I was adding to my wishlist for 3pp PFRPG products and notice there are not many print items.
Now personally I dislike PDFs. They are handy, but the grognard in me loves the feel and sound of that paper flipping through my hands. I can't hand a PDF around the table, and don't have the print/binding capabilities to make my own.
Not a perfect solution, but if you have a print shop like Kinkos, you could have them printed there. The advantage to that, is if a page gets ruined, you can just reprint that one page. Another thing is if you find a PDF less than useful to you, you can just NOT print it out.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Interestingly, I wonder if distributors also have an impact. The manager of the FLGS has seen extremely few print 3PP stuff to even order, never mind customers asking for them.
Here's a list of all of the non-Paizo Pathfinder RPG-compatible print products I can find in Alliance's database (some are out now, some are preorders):
Cubicle 7 Entertainment/Adamant Entertainment:
Tome of Secrets
WARPATH—Rules for Mass Combat
Corsair
DragonWing Games:
Torn Asunder: Critical Hits
Expeditious Retreat Press:
One on One Adventures Compendium
1 on 1 Adventures #12: Journey into Riddle Canyon
1 on 1 Adventures #13: The Pearls of Pohjola
1 on 1 Adventures #14: A Sickness in Silverton
1 on 1 Adventures #15: Cipactli's Maw
Green Ronin Publishing:
Freeport Companion
Jon Brazer Enterprises:
Book of Beasts: Monsters of the River Nations
Open Design:
Sunken Empires
Otherworld Creations/Super Genius Games:
Genius Guide: Volume 1—Adventurer's Handbook
Genius Guide: Volume 2—Loot 4 Less
Genius Guide: Volume 3—Eldritch Codex
Skirmisher Publishing:
The Noble Wild: An Animal Player’s Handbook for Fantasy Role-Playing Games
Troll Lord Games:
Book of Familiars
And here are the print products in our database that aren't currently offered through Alliance (meaning we had them on consignment):
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming:
Book of Divine Magic
Book of Arcane Magic
Paths of Power
Luven Lightfinger's Gear & Treasure Shop
Strategists & Tacticians
Open Design:
Imperial Gazetteer
Incantations from the Other Side: Spirit Magic
Cubicle 7 Entertainment/Adamant Entertainment:
Corsair
According to their website this product is still listed as a pre-order for April 2010 and that it's in stock. What the heck?
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According to their website this product is still listed as a pre-order for April 2010 and that it's in stock. What the heck?Cubicle 7 Entertainment/Adamant Entertainment:
Corsair
Cubicle 7's site is like that... "in stock" apparently really just means "you can place an order for it" As far as I know, it's still a preorder.
Its always dicey. I know I have buyers for exactly 15 copies of of my book, if it were in print format right now. Which is great for my ego, that the local stores will stock it..but hardly cost effective, from a publishers POV
Its always dicey. I know I have buyers for exactly 15 copies of of my book, if it were in print format right now. Which is great for my ego, that the local stores will stock it..but hardly cost effective, from a publishers POV
Have you considered POD publishing, like Lulu?
Understood, Steve. I actually do that: I try to, as much as possible, order my print stuff through my FLGS. Interestingly, I wonder if distributors also have an impact. The manager of the FLGS has seen extremely few print 3PP stuff to even order, never mind customers asking for them.
Distribution certainly has an impact. A brand new publisher who does not have any associated name recognition behind it (whether it is the owners or the designers) will have a difficult time getting picking up by the major distributors. Additionally, the sales people that work for the distributors won't be as inclined to "push" that product to the retailers when they are on the phone with them. Unfortunately, the 3-tier system is flawed, but it is the only thing we have to work with.
Its always dicey. I know I have buyers for exactly 15 copies of of my book, if it were in print format right now. Which is great for my ego, that the local stores will stock it..but hardly cost effective, from a publishers POVHave you considered POD publishing, like Lulu?
I would, but the publisher has a deal with RPGNow.com, to be their print producer. Perhaps it is something the people at Paizo should consider.
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Deals with distributors (online and print), printers, fulfillment houses, and even stores and even freelancers can complicate what does and doesn't make sense for any small publisher. And frequently, those issues involve contracts and exclusivity deals the publisher doesn't want to air out in public. (For all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is the publisher may *like* the deal they are getting in return for some level of exclusivity, and doesn't want to badmouth their partner.)
Of course, the actual Pathfinder RPG print book has been out less than a year, and there's a list of print material available already. As it proves it has staying power, and that its fans will buy 3pp material, I expect you'll see the number of print offerings grow in both number and variety. Certainly SGG is happy to have the Adventurer's Handbook out in print, and we look forward to a lot of people seeing it and picking it up at Gen Con and their FLGS. The more success we see with this book, the more print books we'll have on next year's schedule.
For a brand new 3PP with no name recognition, using mostly unknown writers/designers and artists, too, we just went out on a limb and took a risk. We had a bit of money to put forward, and using Lulu as our source, ordered print copies of each of our first 5 full-length products. To say that we have been surprised at how they have sold would be an understatement. Are they selling as well as anything Paizo releases? No, of course not. Are they selling well enough that we have no problems keeping afloat and pressing on with more projects? You bet they are.
Before our first book, The Book of Arcane Magic, was released, we contacted the folks at Indie Press Revolution and arranged for distribution as well as direct Internet sales through them. While they don't have the reach of the big boys of distribution, like Alliance, they do have a far enough reach that our print products have sold all over the US, in Canada, the UK, and France. We are exceedingly happy with that.
But it is a risk, and we knew we were taking one starting out as unknowns. It won't work out the same for everyone, but, as the old saying goes, you never know until you try.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
Deals with distributors (online and print), printers, fulfillment houses, and even stores and even freelancers can complicate what does and doesn't make sense for any small publisher. And frequently, those issues involve contracts and exclusivity deals the publisher doesn't want to air out in public. (For all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is the publisher may *like* the deal they are getting in return for some level of exclusivity, and doesn't want to badmouth their partner.)
Of course, the actual Pathfinder RPG print book has been out less than a year, and there's a list of print material available already. As it proves it has staying power, and that its fans will buy 3pp material, I expect you'll see the number of print offerings grow in both number and variety. Certainly SGG is happy to have the Adventurer's Handbook out in print, and we look forward to a lot of people seeing it and picking it up at Gen Con and their FLGS. The more success we see with this book, the more print books we'll have on next year's schedule.
And apparently you have some planned already...*wants to know whats going to be in Eldritch Codex*
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I would, but the publisher has a deal with RPGNow.com, to be their print producer. Perhaps it is something the people at Paizo should consider.Its always dicey. I know I have buyers for exactly 15 copies of of my book, if it were in print format right now. Which is great for my ego, that the local stores will stock it..but hardly cost effective, from a publishers POVHave you considered POD publishing, like Lulu?
This has been asked/suggested ad nauseum on the boards. Paizo's response has been quality would suffer though they acknowledge POD services are getting better. And no, Paizo will not do such work in-house, which has been already tried by another well-known rpg company who...don't do it anymore.
And apparently you have some planned already...*wants to know whats going to be in Eldritch Codex*
Here's a thread all about it. :)
Hyrum.
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Chief Technical Officer
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This has been asked/suggested ad nauseum on the boards. Paizo's response has been quality would suffer though they acknowledge POD services are getting better. And no, Paizo will not do such work in-house, which has been already tried by another well-known rpg company who...don't do it anymore.Have you considered POD publishing, like Lulu?I would, but the publisher has a deal with RPGNow.com, to be their print producer. Perhaps it is something the people at Paizo should consider.
We'll revisit this regularly, though. We regularly look at samples, specs, and prices, and I believe that there will come a time where it will become crazy for us *not* to have a POD printer. But that time is... not yet.
We'll revisit this regularly, though. We regularly look at samples, specs, and prices, and I believe that there will come a time where it will become crazy for us *not* to have a POD printer. But that time is... not yet.
When that time comes, if we are still using a PoD printer as our printing source, and you offer the same options as our PoD source (unlike DriveThru's PoD option), then we'll be among the first to sign up.
When that time comes, if we are still using a PoD printer as our printing source, and you offer the same options as our PoD source (unlike DriveThru's PoD option), then we'll be among the first to sign up.
Amen to that...
I was also wondering when reading the title of the original post do they really mean lack of print releases in the sense not having printed books OR do they mean being able to get these books at their local gaming store?