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A ranger in my group wants to CLEAVE with BOTH of his weapons... I dont believe its possible, though the concept is cool. The description of the Cleave Feat says "You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat"
this xtra attack they are referring to is the one given by use of cleave? also, even if its against the 'rules', has anyone allowed it in a homebrew and if so mind sharing me your balancing of this?
Also, I assume you can use PWR ATTACK and CLEAVE together, I dont see why not, but now I am second guessing myself.
Thanks in advance!
You'll note that the Cleave feat explitly states "As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack..."
There is no way, ever, to make more than one attack as a Standard action. Cleave lets you gain an extra attack if your (only one allowed) attack does damage, but that is different than making two attacks. Well, OK, I guess a surprise Pounce is one exception, but that is far removed from using a Cleave feat, and even that is really a Charge action, not an attack action.
Not Haste, not Two-Weapon-Fighting, not anything.
So no, he cannot use two weapons and Cleave. In fact, he cannot Cleave with one of them and make an ordinary non-Cleave attack with the other. If he makes more than one single attack, then he is using a Full-Round action to make a Full-Attack, neither of which allows the use of Cleave at all.
And you are correct about Power Attack. It can be used with any and all melee attacks. Simply decide before making any attack rolls, then subtract the attack penalty and add the damage bonus to every attack you make before the start of your next turn.
A ranger in my group wants to CLEAVE with BOTH of his weapons... I dont believe its possible, though the concept is cool. The description of the Cleave Feat says "You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat"
this xtra attack they are referring to is the one given by use of cleave? also, even if its against the 'rules', has anyone allowed it in a homebrew and if so mind sharing me your balancing of this?Also, I assume you can use PWR ATTACK and CLEAVE together, I dont see why not, but now I am second guessing myself.
Thanks in advance!
My understanding is that it is a standard action to cleave, so no two weapon fighting, that takes a full round action.
Are you allowing 3.5 feats?(I personally highly suggest it for any game) If so look into the dual rending feats etc. The most basic way to handle it would be to make tiered cleave feat(s) for him to use both weapons, on the cleave attacks. The feat would need decent prerequisites, something along the lines of not lvl.11 imo. Maybe; Power Attack-> Cleave -> Dual Cleave( Add HALF damage from secondary weapon on Cleaves, req: lvl6) -> Improved Dual Cleave ( Add all damage from secondary weapon on Cleaves req: lvl11) Although perhaps the level reqs should be a smidge higher.
Yep cleave is a standard action so can not be used as part of a full round action.
Are you allowing 3.5 feats?(I personally highly suggest it for any game) If so look into the dual rending feats etc. The most basic way to handle it would be to make tiered cleave feat(s) for him to use both weapons, on the cleave attacks. The feat would need decent prerequisites, something along the lines of not lvl.11 imo. Maybe; Power Attack-> Cleave -> Dual Cleave( Add HALF damage from secondary weapon on Cleaves, req: lvl6) -> Improved Dual Cleave ( Add all damage from secondary weapon on Cleaves req: lvl11) Although perhaps the level reqs should be a smidge higher.
Well, if we're going to devolve into houserules here, I would advocate never basing feats on character level. There are only a couple core feats that do this, and those are restricted to fighter only.
Instead, base these feats on Base Attack Bonus, which opens them up for everyone (like dual-wielding rangers and rogues for example), and gives the full-BAB classes the advantage of being able to learn them sooner than the other classes.
Devolve? I respectfully disagree to label house-rules as de-evolution. At any rate I do agree that a BAB based req would be a good way to scale for
class to class equality, however I see no reason to make lower BAB classes wait longer to pick up the Feat. I understand your reasoning I just think that a DW Ranger deserves access to this ability at the same time as a fighter w oud imho.
I would use cleave as normal and simply DESCRIBE it as having hit with one or more weapons.
You might want to allow that particular PC to make the second attack with his off-hand weapon. It is bending the rules a little, but not much. In other words, he tries to Cleave as a standard action as normal. The first attack is made with the primary weapon. If it hits, then the second attack can be made with the secondary weapon if the player wants to. It could allow for different effects if weapons are different.
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I would use cleave as normal and simply DESCRIBE it as having hit with one or more weapons.
if you describe it as multiple weapons, then people start arguing they can can add both weapons different enchantments
" i hit with my +2 keen short sword and my +1 flaming shocking long sword" leads to headache.
as long as they understand its purely for fluff reasons i would let them do it tho.
or I'd even let them cleave, but attack each 2 enemies with a 2 different weapons.
"long sword the orc, and short sword his buddy"
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"I would use cleave as normal and simply DESCRIBE it as having hit with one or more weapons."
That's exactly the way I GM... in the beginning I ran into that problem when I was too narrative for a character that was simply attacked by a skeleton that didnt hit her. "Your at this point creating a wall the skeleton cannot get through as it begins tryng to clamber OVER your shield"
My player heard this and said "I drop the shield"... which put me into a pickle when all that happened was the skellie simply missed with its attack roll on her.
So make sure you make it crystal clear to your players the difference between "narrative" and "mechanical" combat.
I literally say things like "mechanically, you hit once with your main weapon once, but miss with your off weapons and deal X dmg to Orc, who now has 2/12 hit points."
but I usually follow up with something to the group in the lines of "Ok so the ranger is still dancing around in between and around the orcs, parrying strikes, and exchanging minor blows until the ranger lands a deep wound across the orcs chest, it kicks the ranger back a moment in frustration and flies into a frenzy as it hangs on to its last moments in life"
That of course is a very drawn out description, but you get the jist.
As long as your players are comfortable with it, which my players eventually did, and everyones on the same sheet of music as far as what numbers are crunching behind the curtain, then you can add some flare to it. I have also noticed that some players get really amped into it and sometimes if they have an idea thats "breaking the rules" but just adds to the cinematic moment, i will sometimes give it. It encourages fun and intersting moments, but your playing with a delicate BEAST, take baby steps...