How about this character:
Aletheia is unfailingly kind. She is morally opposed to killing any mortal creature that isn't Chaotic Evil, though she despises Devils and will attempt to destroy or thwart them at all costs, and if her companions are insistent about killing something, she argues once against the killing and then if that is unsuccessful, she allows it. As she and her companions travel, she focuses on healing and strengthening her allies, and she uses her magicks in villages along the way to aid, heal, and befriend those she meets. All the while, she urges people to pursue their dreams, desires, and goals, regardless of what anyone else thinks:
A noblewoman wants to marry a commoner instead of the foppish lordling that would cement an alliance? Go for it! A family man turns out to be secretly gay? Admit the truth and start a new life. The girl of your dreams is engaged? Go out there and win her for yourself, by whatever means necessary--you can do it!
She constantly emphasises to people that they are special and unique in their own way, and they deserve a chance to see their desires become reality, no matter what it takes.
She is a cleric of a Chaotic Evil goddess of temptation, and her compunction against killing non CE mortals lies in the fact that temptation is much more elegant and satisfying than simply killing--their souls will be consigned to the Abyss if they turn CE instead.
How about this character:
Aletheia is unfailingly kind. She is morally opposed to killing any mortal creature that isn't Chaotic Evil, though she despises Devils and will attempt to destroy or thwart them at all costs, and if her companions are insistent about killing something, she argues once against the killing and then if that is unsuccessful, she allows it. As she and her companions travel, she focuses on healing and strengthening her allies, and she uses her magicks in villages along the way to aid, heal, and befriend those she meets. All the while, she urges people to pursue their dreams, desires, and goals, regardless of what anyone else thinks:
A noblewoman wants to marry a commoner instead of the foppish lordling that would cement an alliance? Go for it! A family man turns out to be secretly gay? Admit the truth and start a new life. The girl of your dreams is engaged? Go out there and win her for yourself, by whatever means necessary--you can do it!
She constantly emphasises to people that they are special and unique in their own way, and they deserve a chance to see their desires become reality, no matter what it takes.
She is a cleric of a Chaotic Evil goddess of temptation, and her compunction against killing non CE mortals lies in the fact that temptation is much more elegant and satisfying than simply killing--their souls will be consigned to the Abyss if they turn CE instead.
This boils down to the cleric only kills CE creatures, but will not go out of her way to prevent the deaths of other creatures (sounds like neutral at first blush). Her motivation is to wait until a creature reaches the CE alignment, then snuff them so they spend eternity in torment in the Abyss. That really isn't a very hard one. That's also a great concept for a CE character who could play nice with a good party.
I actually have great fun with archons who seem to be CE because they have a greater plan to save souls.
How about this character:
Aletheia is unfailingly kind. She is morally opposed to killing any mortal creature that isn't Chaotic Evil, though she despises Devils and will attempt to destroy or thwart them at all costs, and if her companions are insistent about killing something, she argues once against the killing and then if that is unsuccessful, she allows it. As she and her companions travel, she focuses on healing and strengthening her allies, and she uses her magicks in villages along the way to aid, heal, and befriend those she meets. All the while, she urges people to pursue their dreams, desires, and goals, regardless of what anyone else thinks:
A noblewoman wants to marry a commoner instead of the foppish lordling that would cement an alliance? Go for it! A family man turns out to be secretly gay? Admit the truth and start a new life. The girl of your dreams is engaged? Go out there and win her for yourself, by whatever means necessary--you can do it!
She constantly emphasises to people that they are special and unique in their own way, and they deserve a chance to see their desires become reality, no matter what it takes.
She is a cleric of a Chaotic Evil goddess of temptation, and her compunction against killing non CE mortals lies in the fact that temptation is much more elegant and satisfying than simply killing--their souls will be consigned to the Abyss if they turn CE instead.
Goddess of temptation? That's very LE in and of itself. In fact, the Pathfinder deity with the temptation portfolio is LE.
As long as the above pc is trying to corrupt them to CE to harvest souls, yeah that is evil..the not killing anything but evil is iffy and prob puts her in the NE range more then the CE.
The whole plan she has is classic Succubus really, but her having that much rigid restraint puts her outside of CE and C of any type to be honest leaving her with only NE as a way to still be a cleric.
And yet succubi are still demons. :)Isn't there a non evil deity who is all about lust and revenge? The name escapes me.
Calistria: CN, tricky lust and revenge
How about this character:
Aletheia is unfailingly kind. She is morally opposed to killing any mortal creature that isn't Chaotic Evil, though she despises Devils and will attempt to destroy or thwart them at all costs, and if her companions are insistent about killing something, she argues once against the killing and then if that is unsuccessful, she allows it. As she and her companions travel, she focuses on healing and strengthening her allies, and she uses her magicks in villages along the way to aid, heal, and befriend those she meets. All the while, she urges people to pursue their dreams, desires, and goals, regardless of what anyone else thinks:
A noblewoman wants to marry a commoner instead of the foppish lordling that would cement an alliance? Go for it! A family man turns out to be secretly gay? Admit the truth and start a new life. The girl of your dreams is engaged? Go out there and win her for yourself, by whatever means necessary--you can do it!
She constantly emphasises to people that they are special and unique in their own way, and they deserve a chance to see their desires become reality, no matter what it takes.
She is a cleric of a Chaotic Evil goddess of temptation, and her compunction against killing non CE mortals lies in the fact that temptation is much more elegant and satisfying than simply killing--their souls will be consigned to the Abyss if they turn CE instead.
This boils down to the cleric only kills CE creatures, but will not go out of her way to prevent the deaths of other creatures (sounds like neutral at first blush). Her motivation is to wait until a creature reaches the CE alignment, then snuff them so they spend eternity in torment in the Abyss. That really isn't a very hard one. That's also a great concept for a CE character who could play nice with a good party.
I actually have great fun with archons who seem to be CE because they have a greater plan to save souls.
She was a PC of mine--played nice with the party the entire adventure, and helped them avoid being double-crossed by devils. No one discovered her true alignment.
And yet succubi are still demons. :)
Succubi do not market in temptation as such. Lust may be a form of temptation, but temptation is something else entirely. Think Faust.
She was a PC of mine--played nice with the party the entire adventure, and helped them avoid being double-crossed by devils. No one discovered her true alignment.
Considering CE doesn't make any sense at all for her, no wonder. Nor does it make sense for her theoretical deity.
She was a PC of mine--played nice with the party the entire adventure, and helped them avoid being double-crossed by devils. No one discovered her true alignment.
As I said above she reads as NE, her goddess might be CE but nothing in her actions or anything you said even hints at CE
As long as the above pc is trying to corrupt them to CE to harvest souls, yeah that is evil..the not killing anything but evil is iffy and prob puts her in the NE range more then the CE.
The whole plan she has is classic Succubus really, but her having that much rigid restraint puts her outside of CE and C of any type to be honest leaving her with only NE as a way to still be a cleric.
On the other hand, she fosters nonconformity and desire, getting what you wish for most regardless of society's mores. The goddess she worships favours succubi and other such tempters as minions, though the character doesn't tempt people with her own body. She is also somewhat insane and believes that what she is doing is "best" and "helping people" because it is allowing people to achieve their desires and be their true selves. Becoming a CE soul in the Abyss and serving as a demon in her goddess's menagerie of temptresses seems like a good alternative to her--she thinks of self-sacrificing "good" as counterfeit and contrary to human nature and "laws" as being arbitrary restrictions that society creates to protect itself from people being able to reach their true potentials.
And yet succubi are still demons. :)Succubi do not market in temptation as such. Lust may be a form of temptation, but temptation is something else entirely. Think Faust.
She was a PC of mine--played nice with the party the entire adventure, and helped them avoid being double-crossed by devils. No one discovered her true alignment.Considering CE doesn't make any sense at all for her, no wonder. Nor does it make sense for her theoretical deity.
Amphousa, Goddess of Lust, Uncontrollable Urge for Power and Desire
Queen of Seduction, The Sigh in the Darkness, The Unfulfilled Desire
Symbol: Full red lips on a field of darkness
Home Plane: ???
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Portfolio: Lust, Uncontrolled Desire, Attainment no matter the cost
Worshippers: Powermad Dreamers, Megalomaniacs, Desperate Lovers, Spurned Lovers, Undisciplined Spellcasters, and anyone who desires power without regard to consequences
Cleric Alignments: CN, CE, NE
Domains: Charm, Chaos, Corruption, Evil, Temptation, Trickery
Favoured Weapon: Kiss of Lust (Unarmed)
Amphousa appears as a voluptuous, scantily-clad mortal female of unparalleled beauty. The race and specific features vary, but her favourites seem to be human, either an delicate, innocent, and kind-seeming blonde form, a dark and mysterious raven-haired beauty, or a red-haired temptress designed purely to inspire lust. She is served by myriad succubi, all of whom typically have at least three such forms in their repertoire to honour their goddess�it is said that they are Amphousa's own joke at the relationship of the three goddesses, with the raven-haired girl standing for Espranachtis, the blonde Disnomia, and the red-haired temptress Amphousa herself. This belief has become widespread enough that red hair is taken as a sign of being close to the goddess, and so many of Amphousa's priestesses have red hair.
Amphousa herself does retain some of the subtlety of Espranachtis, but she is nowhere near as planning as Disnomia, preferring to give in to the passion of the moment, and encouraging others to do so as well, to give in to their primal urges and take what they want. As such, she can sometimes be a patron of love, but love spurred by Amphousa's lust always turns bad. Because of her nature, Amphousa truly enjoys herself as she corrupts others, and the thought of twisting pure hearts to evil fills her with glee. This actually causes her to sometimes be perversely protective and caring of her favourites�they aren't just pawns like for Disnomia, but instead, they are each individual expressions of the malignant growth of evil, obsession, and lust. This doesn't stop her from egging them ever onward to greater and greater heights of depravity until they destroy themselves, however, as this is her ultimate goal, but she will protect them almost tenderly until the evil in their hearts is ripe. Of course, should they turn from her bosom, she is both relentless and brutal as she exults in tearing them apart and drinking in their blood, so woe to he who jilts the Queen of Seduction!
At most I could peg her as CN if you play up the insane part a bit, although she still reads as NE to me. Nothing you have shown says CE other then her god is CE.
Amphousa herself does retain some of the subtlety of Espranachtis
You will excuse me if I don't take ENWorld as an authority on the subject either.
Lust is rather Chaotic. Temptation from that direction is Chaotic.
|
As long as the above pc is trying to corrupt them to CE to harvest souls, yeah that is evil..the not killing anything but evil is iffy and prob puts her in the NE range more then the CE.
The whole plan she has is classic Succubus really, but her having that much rigid restraint puts her outside of CE and C of any type to be honest leaving her with only NE as a way to still be a cleric.
By the PRD though, isn't someone who wants to spread evil the definition of CE? Evil isn't a brand-name product(except in Order of the Stick), there are lots of different evils and quite a few generics. I can see someone who wants to spread evil for evil's sake avoiding those flavors of evil that get in the way of the ones she enjoys best.
By way of example, someone who kidnaps people to sadistically torture them might prefer to let them live with the pain and disfigurement rather than simply kill them. In order to make it easier to inflict lifelong torment after one of these sessions, the sadist might even choose victims who have dark secrets or publicly known crimes so that they can be blackmailed into silence or expect no public sympathy if they do come forward.
On a personal note, I would never ever want to be in an adventuring group with such a person. Not even if they were under a geas not to harm me. Just gah, skin crawling.
I never said it was not evil, I said the level or restraint and long term planning along with cunning and Patience she showed marks her as non chaotic. He didn't talk about her being sadistic but more a corrupter who tricks and talks folks down the path of corruption slowly with great care and for thought.
At most I could peg her as CN if you play up the insane part a bit, although she still reads as NE to me. Nothing you have shown says CE other then her god is CE.
Interesting. I don't see what's so nonchaotic about her. She is very anti-authority, libertaarian, and sometimes downright anarchic in her views about law vs chaos. Is it only because she doesn't engage in violence? She finds it distasteful in all circumstances (even CE people she figures will just eventually die, though she'd do it if she had to if it looked like there's a danger of redemption).
I never said it was not evil, I said the level or restraint and long term planning along with cunning and Patience she showed marks her as non chaotic. He didn't talk about her being sadistic but more a corrupter who tricks and talks folks down the path of corruption slowly with great care and for thought.
She has not a hint of sadism. In her mind, she is helping people be freed of the shackles of morality and get what they want. She sees beauty in the pure chaos and selfishness of the Chaotic Evil alignment. The only thing she ever did that raised eyebrows in her party was mention that she found (non-succubus) demons beautiful in their own way, but some people just took that as a weird purity-sue statement.
|
I never said it was not evil, I said the level or restraint and long term planning along with cunning and Patience she showed marks her as non chaotic. He didn't talk about her being sadistic but more a corrupter who tricks and talks folks down the path of corruption slowly with great care and for thought.
Really? She's a home breaker, destroys ties that would cement an alliance, encourages selfishness in others. Sounds like that Maenad from True Blood. And then, once they have fallen into CE alignment, snuffs them? Yeah, CE all the way.
Whether or not she "planned it all along", she is one spiteful b#$~+.
I'm starting to suspect that, despite the picture, you're not a real doctor.Amphousa herself does retain some of the subtlety of EspranachtisYou will excuse me if I don't take ENWorld as an authority on the subject either.
You mean he's not a drummer for slipknot? I feel lied to.
Really? She's a home breaker, destroys ties that would cement an alliance, encourages selfishness in others. Sounds like that Maenad from True Blood. And then, once they have fallen into CE alignment, snuffs them? Yeah, CE all the way.
Whether or not she "planned it all along", she is one spiteful b*~&!.
Spiteful yes, evil yes. CE no..I peg her as NE she just does not act anything like a CE person but does display actions of a NE one.
Really? She's a home breaker, destroys ties that would cement an alliance, encourages selfishness in others.
She doesn't do any of that, except the last. She encourages the other. Of course, that's Evil. Devils love to screw people over the same way and they all run LE.
She has not a hint of sadism. In her mind, she is helping people be freed of the shackles of morality and get what they want. She sees beauty in the pure chaos and selfishness of the Chaotic Evil alignment. The only thing she ever did that raised eyebrows in her party was mention that she found (non-succubus) demons beautiful in their own way, but some people just took that as a weird purity-sue statement.I never said it was not evil, I said the level or restraint and long term planning along with cunning and Patience she showed marks her as non chaotic. He didn't talk about her being sadistic but more a corrupter who tricks and talks folks down the path of corruption slowly with great care and for thought.
Creepy does not make CE, she just does not match the part, her actions do not match up
Eh ya can call it what ever ya like, as a GM I would peg you as NE you act more like that then CE . Your actions are on par with "I play a LG pc who lies, steal and cheats from everyone and at every chance he gets but is still loyal to his friends and has his own code of conduct" Which ya know is not LG
It's not what AL you write on your sheet that determines what it is, it's how you act that determines if you are really that AL or not.
|
|
Eh ya can call it what ever ya like, as a GM I would peg you as NE you act more like that then CE . Your actions are on par with "I play a LG pc who lies, steal and cheats from everyone and at every chance he gets but is still loyal to his friends and has his own code of conduct" Which ya know is not LG
It's not what AL you write on your sheet that determines what it is, it's how you act that determines if you are really that AL or not.
Well, that's an easy example. What about the LG paladin who scans every person he meets with detect evil so he can feel justified in relentlessly slaughtering them?
|
|
Spiteful yes, evil yes. CE no..I peg her as NE she just does not act anything like a CE person but does display actions of a NE one.
Really? She's a home breaker, destroys ties that would cement an alliance, encourages selfishness in others. Sounds like that Maenad from True Blood. And then, once they have fallen into CE alignment, snuffs them? Yeah, CE all the way.
Whether or not she "planned it all along", she is one spiteful b*~&!.
So how, exactly, does a CE person act? What does she have to do to be CE? She purposefully sets out to destroy things, she ignores the law, she murders people the second they become chaotic evil and destroys their lives before she does so.
|
|
She doesn't do any of that, except the last. She encourages the other. Of course, that's Evil. Devils love to screw people over the same way and they all run LE.
Really? She's a home breaker, destroys ties that would cement an alliance, encourages selfishness in others.
She can't be lawful evil, as the actions she encourages are inherently CE. LE wants more souls to be LE, a CE soul isn't going to go to the 9 Hells, they go to the Abyss.
A LG paladin who slaughters folks without cause fall the first day really and be brought up on murder charges. Being evil alone does not give a paladin a right to just kill them without cause. People seem to forget the Lawful in lawful good alot.
But I was not talking about a paladin but say a LG rogue who lies, steals and cheats and pretty does what he pleases but the player clams it's still LG. Which ya know it is not. Which is the same thing I see with RE's PC there, he keeps saying CE but her actions simply do not back that clam up.
She can't be lawful evil, as the actions she encourages are inherently CE. LE wants more souls to be LE, a CE soul isn't going to go to the 9 Hells, they go to the Abyss.She doesn't do any of that, except the last. She encourages the other. Of course, that's Evil. Devils love to screw people over the same way and they all run LE.
Really? She's a home breaker, destroys ties that would cement an alliance, encourages selfishness in others.
And I'm sure Devils encourage people to be boyscouts and lawyers.
A LG paladin who slaughters folks without cause fall the first day really and be brought up on murder charges. Being evil alone does not give a paladin a right to just kill them without cause. People seem to forget the Lawful in lawful good alot.
But I was not talking about a paladin but say a LG rogue who lies, steals and cheats and pretty does what he pleases but the player clams it's still LG. Which ya know it is not. Which is the same thing I see with RE's PC there, he keeps saying CE but her actions simply do not back that clam up.
I believe a lot in near-miss learning. Can you make a simple change that would make her CE in your book? For me, the chaotic alignment is strongly entwined with the idea of freedom, and that is what she preaches. Are you saying that she is a NE character by her actions who believes in chaos as a philosophy and preaches CE actions to others? I could buy it, or even CN but preaching CE ideals.
|
|
And I'm sure Devils encourage people to be boyscouts and lawyers.She can't be lawful evil, as the actions she encourages are inherently CE. LE wants more souls to be LE, a CE soul isn't going to go to the 9 Hells, they go to the Abyss.She doesn't do any of that, except the last. She encourages the other. Of course, that's Evil. Devils love to screw people over the same way and they all run LE.
Really? She's a home breaker, destroys ties that would cement an alliance, encourages selfishness in others.
...You're being purposefully unhelpful and contrary, aren't you?
I don't see why you should change her, not sure why ya would want to. Yeah if she is preaching chaos big time I can kinda see CN, Shes just not well evil or maniacal enough for CE. Also she has a strict code, she has a set value system with very firm standards on what she will and will not do. A CE person does not have those, heck most NE people do not have them.
She freedom loving sure, but shes very set in her way and very methodical about how she goes about it. She reminds me of that saying "those that can't do teach" this is how she comes off to me. She tied down and limited by her own ideals and methods but excepts that because they allow her to give people the freedom she can't have herself.
I was not saying anything was wrong with your pc, man. I just disagree on her AL is all.
...You're being purposefully unhelpful and contrary, aren't you?
You said she was encouraging them to be CE. Obviously Devils give everyone the power to be the best lawyer they can be.
I'm not getting the joke, but...I suppose. So...yeah, she's CE? We're agreeing now, right?You said she was encouraging them to be CE. Obviously Devils give everyone the power to be the best lawyer they can be.
...You're being purposefully unhelpful and contrary, aren't you?
No, I thought your logic made no sense so I was being sarcastic.
I don't see why you should change her, not sure why ya would want to. Yeah if she is preaching chaos big time I can kinda see CN, Shes just not well evil or maniacal enough for CE. Also she has a strict code, she has a set value system with very firm standards on what she will and will not do. A CE person does not have those, heck most NE people do not have them.
She freedom loving sure, but shes very set in her way and very methodical about how she goes about it. She reminds me of that saying "those that can't do teach" this is how she comes off to me. She tied down and limited by her own ideals and methods but excepts that because they allow her to give people the freedom she can't have herself.
I was not saying anything was wrong with your pc, man. I just disagree on her AL is all.
Presumably, if you are telling someone they are wrong, you are going by some authority, such as the core rules (I omit the rules about good and lawful because there seems to be little question):
Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.
By my reading, the cleric has no compassion for others and kills without qualms. She actively pursues evil, killing out of duty to an evil deity. She seems to enjoy hurting, though not oppressing, others. Sounds evil.
She has no compunctions about killing, and simply mentions "one time" that she is not interested in killing creatures that are not CE, but will participate if the party wants to move on it. That's no compunctions against killing even good creatures in my book. She actually makes sacrifices to hurt others, which sounds non-neutral, too.
So on the good/evil axis she comes very easily down on the evil side.
Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.
Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has some respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is generally honest, but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.
She is a fan of freedom, appears to be quite adaptable and flexible. She seems to have a beef with legitimate authority, and actively thwarts the law. She wants unfettered personal freedom so that people can hang themselves.
She has no respect for authority (not neutral). She is not at all honest, and requires no temptation to lie or deceive.
So on the law/chaos axis she comes very easily down on the chaos side.
Maybe she's NE, but she seems an awful lot like a not-particularly-violent CE to me. The hint comes in the form of worshipping a CE deity and doing what that CE deity does in order to promote the cause of CE. If the number of "CE" in that sentence doesn't drop a really big hint about the alignment of the cleric, I don't know what would. If her deity was actually a NE temptress, that might tip you off that the DM in that game thinks this type of temptation is not chaotic. That is not the case, and succubi are still CE in PFRPG. I really don't think this is a scenario where anyone should be saying, "you're wrong and the alignment on your character sheet is just letters with no meaning."
I don't see why you should change her, not sure why ya would want to. Yeah if she is preaching chaos big time I can kinda see CN, Shes just not well evil or maniacal enough for CE. Also she has a strict code, she has a set value system with very firm standards on what she will and will not do. A CE person does not have those, heck most NE people do not have them.
She freedom loving sure, but shes very set in her way and very methodical about how she goes about it. She reminds me of that saying "those that can't do teach" this is how she comes off to me. She tied down and limited by her own ideals and methods but excepts that because they allow her to give people the freedom she can't have herself.
I was not saying anything was wrong with your pc, man. I just disagree on her AL is all.
Oh dear--I apologise if I came off defensively in any way. I played her in one game over three years ago and just thought she would be an interesting case study for this thread. I'm not trying to argue or say you are wrong--rather I am interested in where you draw the line and would quite enjoy understanding your perspective better by seeing how you would change her to make her CE (stupid internet and not conveying tone). I didn't mean I was going to change her or anything like that.
not-particularly-violent and CE do not go together by the book. Her goddess was CE but NE is one step from CE and she acted a whole lot like the book says NE would act.
And yes Succubi work somewhat like that but they have no limits to what they will do and no issue killing anyone in the way. His PC however did, and would only kill non CR people if she had no other option it seems.
So yes I do feel she was not CE
Oh dear--I apologise if I came off defensively in any way. I played her in one game over three years ago and just thought she would be an interesting case study for this thread. I'm not trying to argue or say you are wrong--rather I am interested in where you draw the line and would quite enjoy understanding your perspective better by seeing how you would change her to make her CE (stupid internet and not conveying tone). I didn't mean I was going to change her or anything like that.
No, No lol I was just saying that so you would not think I was saying you played wrong or attacking your playstyle. Some folks get touchy and we have had a fun civil thread and I wanted to keep it that way. And thought I would try and cut off any resentment I was attacking you or your group, as ya know we have spent the last page dissecting one of your pc's after all.
And yes she was an interesting study must have been fun to play as well.
As for how I would see her being CE, well the not killing non CE folks would have to go. She would get rid of anyone in the way of her plans for one. She could still keep up the friendly face , that is what bluff skills are for after all.
She would get a bit meaner, prob worse to be honest. She would get more viscous in her corrupting leading folks to do horrible things, telling lies, setting folks up for betrayal. I just see her being way more evil and petty. With much worse and cruel" advice" she wouldn't just push do want you want, but give the advice that would cause the most pain for the most people.
Anyhow as I said I think they way you played her was great, And found a great way to make such an evil person fit into a group. I just thought is was NE not CE is all.
How about this: Do you think it is possible to do an evil character that does not kill, directly or indirectly (via minions, plots, etc)?
|
How about this: Do you think it is possible to do an evil character that does not kill, directly or indirectly (via minions, plots, etc)?
Depends. Does a government official that enacts legislation designed to degrade quality of life for the poor count? It kills people over time, but not overtly. He is certainly oppressing people and causing them harm. What about the loan shark that lends people money at an interest rate they cannot afford, keeping them in perpetual debt that eventually kills them? Does he count?
How about this: Do you think it is possible to do an evil character that does not kill, directly or indirectly (via minions, plots, etc)?Depends. Does a government official that enacts legislation designed to degrade quality of life for the poor count? It kills people over time, but not overtly. He is certainly oppressing people and causing them harm. What about the loan shark that lends people money at an interest rate they cannot afford, keeping them in perpetual debt that eventually kills them? Does he count?
I would say yes, that does, even if those persons don't actually die from that harm.
Now, if that is the case, can a CE character exist in a party without any present or likely future inclination to kill a party member?
I would say yes, that does, even if those persons don't actually die from that harm.Now, if that is the case, can a CE character exist in a party without any present or likely future inclination to kill a party member?
Sure, as long as they never anger them, always stay stronger and it never comes to a point where letting another pc die to is good or might be useful for that CE pc. If it comes to a point leaving you to die is better then staying and helping you ..your left. If it comes to the point you piss them off..good chance they will try and harm you.
Adventuring with a CE pc is knowing at any time he may and at some point will turn on you, most likely when your weak
|
|
How about this: Do you think it is possible to do an evil character that does not kill, directly or indirectly (via minions, plots, etc)?Depends. Does a government official that enacts legislation designed to degrade quality of life for the poor count? It kills people over time, but not overtly. He is certainly oppressing people and causing them harm. What about the loan shark that lends people money at an interest rate they cannot afford, keeping them in perpetual debt that eventually kills them? Does he count?
Yes, that's how LE operates.
Oh dear--I apologise if I came off defensively in any way. I played her in one game over three years ago and just thought she would be an interesting case study for this thread. I'm not trying to argue or say you are wrong--rather I am interested in where you draw the line and would quite enjoy understanding your perspective better by seeing how you would change her to make her CE (stupid internet and not conveying tone). I didn't mean I was going to change her or anything like that.
No, No lol I was just saying that so you would not think I was saying you played wrong or attacking your playstyle. Some folks get touchy and we have had a fun civil thread and I wanted to keep it that way. And thought I would try and cut off any resentment I was attacking you or your group, as ya know we have spent the last page dissecting one of your pc's after all.
And yes she was an interesting study must have been fun to play as well.
As for how I would see her being CE, well the not killing non CE folks would have to go. She would get rid of anyone in the way of her plans for one. She could still keep up the friendly face , that is what bluff skills are for after all.
She would get a bit meaner, prob worse to be honest. She would get more viscous in her corrupting leading folks to do horrible things, telling lies, setting folks up for betrayal. I just see her being way more evil and petty. With much worse and cruel" advice" she wouldn't just push do want you want, but give the advice that would cause the most pain for the most people.
Anyhow as I said I think they way you played her was great, And found a great way to make such an evil person fit into a group. I just thought is was NE not CE is all.
Hey no worries--I could tell you weren't attacking my playstyle there. Heck, it isn't even my usual playstyle--my two current PCs are Neutral Good and Chaotic Good and I often wind up being the most Good in my group (in one weird case of my youth where the GM was lax on the code, I was moreso than the group Paladin, who was a quite insane CN as far as I could see, talking to a sock puppet and watching innocents die, but I digress).
I sometimes like challenges, and I really like being the character out of the spotlight who helps others do better and get the spotlight, as well as getting along with other PCs. So when someone made a thread like this those years ago which had a bottom line of "CE characters are not team players," I tried to make the most team-friendly CE character possible that was still strongly evil.
Ally was friendly, cheerful, and helpful, saving people's lives and speaking often with children from the local village. After we were seemingly triple-crossed about a McGuffin that could free a powerful devil, she offered a third option--don't give the amulet to the man who hired us who was a devil in disguise or to the guardian creature which seemed to also be a devil in disguise, but instead give it to Ally's sister (a more powerful and much less-nice priestess of her deity who was the BBEG of another adventure in the shared world). So she worked together easily with the party, was a major team player, and got to spread the cause of evil too (she also tried to convince other PCs to go for what they wanted no matter what--nothing better than a fallen adventurer).
I think some of the people helping defend Ally's CE alignment may overstate her desire to kill. She considers a CE life to be a thing of beauty--a true expression of freedom and humanity, only worth ending if they seem like they are about to stray to another alignment. Morality is oppressive. Social mores are oppressive. Your conscience is oppressive. None of those things matter. Take what you want--you deserve it! Devils are oppressors--they are anathema and must be destroyed, for they can't be 'redeemed' (she hates them). And she does consider her path to be a redemption, twisted though she is.
Ally was a very troubled young woman and a very interesting experience for me to play. I recommend something similar for anyone thinking about a CE party-friendly character.
Hey no worries--I could tell you weren't attacking my playstyle there. Heck, it isn't even my usual playstyle--my two current PCs are Neutral Good and Chaotic Good and I often wind up being the most Good in my group (in one weird...Oh dear--I apologise if I came off defensively in any way. I played her in one game over three years ago and just thought she would be an interesting case study for this thread. I'm not trying to argue or say you are wrong--rather I am interested in where you draw the line and would quite enjoy understanding your perspective better by seeing how you would change her to make her CE (stupid internet and not conveying tone). I didn't mean I was going to change her or anything like that.
No, No lol I was just saying that so you would not think I was saying you played wrong or attacking your playstyle. Some folks get touchy and we have had a fun civil thread and I wanted to keep it that way. And thought I would try and cut off any resentment I was attacking you or your group, as ya know we have spent the last page dissecting one of your pc's after all.
And yes she was an interesting study must have been fun to play as well.
As for how I would see her being CE, well the not killing non CE folks would have to go. She would get rid of anyone in the way of her plans for one. She could still keep up the friendly face , that is what bluff skills are for after all.
She would get a bit meaner, prob worse to be honest. She would get more viscous in her corrupting leading folks to do horrible things, telling lies, setting folks up for betrayal. I just see her being way more evil and petty. With much worse and cruel" advice" she wouldn't just push do want you want, but give the advice that would cause the most pain for the most people.
Anyhow as I said I think they way you played her was great, And found a great way to make such an evil person fit into a group. I just thought is was NE not CE is all.
Hmmm. Now I think I see what Seeker was stumbling over. She was enraptured by CE, as if it were a beautiful work of art, and encouraged people to become that thing. However, she herself was not really that thing because she refused to kill the innocent, and didn't really seem to want to harm them either. It's a little confusing because she seems to want to send them to the Abyss, but really she just worships the CE form. Kind of like a serial killer groupie who wants to marry a death row inmate, but would never murder anyone themselves. It sounds like she doesn't really even want to do any harm to anyone. She just believes everyone should be free, and you can't be completely free until you are CE.
I notice, however, that Seeker suggests making her more *evil* rather than more *chaotic* for her to earn a CE alignment. That suggests that Seeker should be arguing she is CN, rather than NE. I hate to waffle, but I can see the CN now. I normally define alignment without reference to outer planar issues, and assume that outer planar issues trump. This character is interesting though, because it introduces the question can you idealize an alignment that is not your own? Maybe so.
How about this: Do you think it is possible to do an evil character that does not kill, directly or indirectly (via minions, plots, etc)?
Murder is the defining trait of evil. Like TriOmeg suggests, the killing can be not only indirect, but also attenuated. I think an evil person must intend to kill an innocent person or be coldly indifferent to the fact that a death is likely. I treat certain forms of battery as sufficiently indifferent to the victim's life as to be evil, however. Kind of like killing a portion of a person (perhaps literally, by chopping off a hand) or killing with a certain probability. I love Rogue Eidolon's example because it was the first evil character concept I've heard of that I really thought was evil, but did not kill anyone. (I don't think greedy merchants who would not kill anyone are evil.) Ally's an interesting example because she would actually encourage people to kill if that is what they wanted to do, but would not do it herself. Still, that sounds like indirect killing.
So I can think of no good example of an evil character that does not kill, either directly or indirectly. The non-killing types just don't seem evil enough to earn the alignment.
So I can think of no good example of an evil character that does not kill, either directly or indirectly. The non-killing types just don't seem evil enough to earn the alignment.
How about a character that wants all life to suffer in eternal painful immortality and believes death is an undeserved release from torment?