Hello everyone,
I was wondering about the discoveries my alchemist could take, and thought that maybe some of you had some ideas on the subject.
My alchemist is of the ranged persuasion, the less he is in melee the better. And the bombs are his main attack. He also acts as a support for the group.
He has hight INT and high DEX
Here are my reflexions about the discoveries:
- The ones that I'm sure I'll take:
- Infusion (should be core IMHO)
- Precise bombs
- Fast bombs
- Smoke bomb (Instant concealment FTW !)
- The ones that I'm sure I won't take:
- Grand mutagen (Nice but not so useful outside melee)
- Greater mutagen
- Feral mutagen
- Infuse mutagen (If it doesn't get change in the APG I don't see who would ever choose this one)
- Sticky poison (could be nice for melee, but I don't see it working on a ranged weapon)
- Enhance potion (Don't see the point in this one, as an alchemist you're making you're own potions anyway, so they already are at your level...)
- Dilution
- Those who seem good but not good enough compared to others:
- Acid bomb (I can't take all the elemental variations of the bombs and this doesn't seem to be the best)
- Concussive bomb
- Delayed bomb (This one is a tough one, I'd really want to have it, but at this time it feels too limited: only one bombs and delayed only for rounds/lvl, I you could make a minefield on the other hand...)
- Shock bomb
- Sticky bomb
- Potent bombs (tempting, but, in my mind, you lose to much versatility to gain only a few in power)
- Inferno bomb (good for visual effects but I prefer the other clouds)
- Finally those that I'd take but don't have enough slot for all of them:
- Frost bomb (staggered is good...)
- Force bomb (...but so is prone, although it makes the target harder to touch for the next ranged attack. And yet again there's no DR for Force...)
- Explosive bomb (seems a bit behind the ones above)
- Madness bomb (I have the feeling that this one is better on paper than in game)
-The variant clouds:
- Stink bomb (nauseated is awesome, but the clouds duration is only one round)
- Poison bomb (the advantage of this one over stink bomb is the duration and the fact that an alchemist could stay all day inside...)
-Other:
- Extend potion (at best its usefulness is really circumstantial but...)
- Eternal potion (...this one could be more than handy, yet is it worth two discoveries ?)
- Elixir of life (as one of the two lvl 20 discoveries)
- Combine extracts (quickened extracts...)
-The variant bombs:
The alchemist has 11 discoveries over 20 lvl (2 at lvl 20) and currently I have rounded down the choice to 13 discoveries...
So what do you think ? Which ones would you chose ? and in which order ?
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Hello everyone,
Hello Bjørn,
- The ones that I'm sure I'll take:
Infusion (should be core IMHO)
Precise bombs
Fast bombs
Smoke bomb (Instant concealment FTW !)
All sounds rock-solid!
- The ones that I'm sure I won't take:
Grand mutagen (Nice but not so useful outside melee)
Greater mutagen
Feral mutagen
Infuse mutagen (If it doesn't get change in the APG I don't see who would ever choose this one)
Sticky poison (could be nice for melee, but I don't see it working on a ranged weapon)
Enhance potion (Don't see the point in this one, as an alchemist you're making you're own potions anyway, so they already are at your level...)
Dilution
About those:
It might still be prudent to pass those over in favour of stuff that is closer to your focus, but I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand.
- Those who seem good but not good enough compared to others:Acid bomb (I can't take all the elemental variations of the bombs and this doesn't seem to be the best)
Concussive bomb
Delayed bomb (This one is a tough one, I'd really want to have it, but at this time it feels too limited: only one bombs and delayed only for rounds/lvl, I you could make a minefield on the other hand...)
Shock bomb
Sticky bomb
Potent bombs (tempting, but, in my mind, you lose to much versatility to gain only a few in power)
Inferno bomb (good for visual effects but I prefer the other clouds)
-The variant bombs:
Frost bomb (staggered is good...)
Force bomb (...but so is prone, although it makes the target harder to touch for the next ranged attack. And yet again there's no DR for Force...)
Explosive bomb (seems a bit behind the ones above)
Madness bomb (I have the feeling that this one is better on paper than in game)
-The variant clouds:
Stink bomb (nauseated is awesome, but the clouds duration is only one round)
Poison bomb (the advantage of this one over stink bomb is the duration and the fact that an alchemist could stay all day inside...)
-Other:
Extend potion (at best its usefulness is really circumstantial but...)
Eternal potion (...this one could be more than handy, yet is it worth two discoveries ?)
Elixir of life (as one of the two lvl 20 discoveries)
Combine extracts (quickened extracts...)
Thank you for your time KaeYoss.
Greater/grand mutagen: Note that they don't just add more ability scores to increase - they also improve the bonuses. Talk to your GM about getting grand mutagen and still only using two bonuses (so you won't touch str/int) - and even if not, Greater at least will be useful! Extra con is never a bad thing (remember that the decision whether you're in melee range is not yours alone - if the enemy gets to you, you're next to someone who will attack you. Plus, they can always attack you with ranged stuff), and a bigger dex boost means you can hit even better (and be harder to hit)!
I do agree that extra CON is always useful, but the base mutagen already gives a nice boost. As for Dex the more the better sure, but it can't increase the AC that much (even with a light armor) and the will save is already the worst I have, not sure I want to lose those 2 points of wis. All in all I think they are not worth the trouble if not in melee.
Infuse can be a great backup - you make one extra mutagen in case you really need a second mutagen on that day. If not, the stuff keeps forever. I guess the GP price might be decreased in final, but still, it's far from being useless.
I think you missed the 2 INT points hit when using this...
Enhance potion: Your assumption is not completely right: You make potions at the level you want, between the minimum requirement and your current level. But if you use something above minimum, it will cost more! 50gp per spell level per extra caster level! It might not be the greatest thing on earth at 2nd level, but imagine being 10th level and using a haste potion that cost you 1050gp (or 525gp to make) which normally lasts 7 rounds to last you 10 rounds, like that potion that would cost 1500 (750 to make). Instant savings!
I didn't see it that way, so... not totally useless... still is it worth a discovery slot ?
Dilution: Another money saver! Once per day, you can instantly create a potion (assuming he already has one of those) and pay one-quarter of what he would have paid in the store (or half of what he would have paid to make one from scratch - and that would have taken a couple hours)
If it was at will (but only one time per potion) I might start to consider that maybe it has some use. (and depending on your level the time to make a potion as an alchemist can be really short indeed)
Delayed bomb: The only one delayed bomb at a time part does suck (It has that nasty after-taste of being a rule for rules' sake), but still, combine it with sleight of hand and do some reverse-stealing.
It's a really good (awesome even) idea, but a bit out of character for my alchemist (yeah I'm still cursed with a bit of RP...)
Potent bomb: I kind of agree: Giving up the other stuff for a few points of extra damage doesn't sound appealing to me. I'd consider it a filler for when I'm playing a bomber alchemist and run out of discoveries that would fit or sound fun
In other words: never ;)
Force bomb: Call it your ghost bomb. I guess staggered versus prone is a matter of taste and circumstance - I'd prefer prone, as both only last for one round (well, prone lasts until you stand up, but you probably want to do that right away), with prone your party's melee warriors will be thankful for the extra AoOs.
And the sneaky rogue too... yes, prone might be better
Explosive bomb: Great if you're up against crowds, as you affect a larger radius. The catching fire part is merely the icing.
But the larger radius is « only » for the splash damage, which doesn't seem to scale that well. And if the crowd is made of low level minion the clouds would take care of them even better than this one
Extend potion: Not bad, I'd say. If you have any focus on using potions to enhance your battle prowess (which makes kind of sense for the alchemist), this is like a lesser rod of metamagic extend or three.
Eternal potion: Really awesome! That one potion could be haste! I'll spend two discoveries to get permanent haste any time. Okay, not that horribly useful to you as a bomber (unless you use fast bombs a lot), but I'm sure there's other stuff that warrants this. Permanent shield? Permanent barkskin? It's like an extra magic item!
I agree with you it's like an extra magic item (in fact that's exactly the conclusion I came to), but limited to lvl 3 spells when you are lvl 16. Haste is obviously the first to come to mind, but potions of haste might achieve the same result, and low level extract are here for that to...
To conclude, you didn't help at all ! :P
You made me consider discoveries I had discarded, making the choices harder !
Anyway, what would be your 11 discoveries from lvl 2 to 20 ?
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Im sorry to jump in here and not add anything helpful to the discussion; I am playing a bomb focused alchemist myself, and I have exactly the same views on these discoveries as you do. I just wanted to hop in and talk about:
Delayed bomb: The only one delayed bomb at a time part does suck (It has that nasty after-taste of being a rule for rules' sake), but still, combine it with sleight of hand and do some reverse-stealing.
Am I the only one who immediately thought of Fallout when they read this? :)
Im sorry to jump in here and not add anything helpful to the discussion; I am playing a bomb focused alchemist myself, and I have exactly the same views on these discoveries as you do. I just wanted to hop in and talk about:
Delayed bomb: The only one delayed bomb at a time part does suck (It has that nasty after-taste of being a rule for rules' sake), but still, combine it with sleight of hand and do some reverse-stealing.Am I the only one who immediately thought of Fallout when they read this? :)
That's where the idea comes from. I don't play it myself, but the guys from my Saturday group do, and they told me of the "grenade gift" option :)
I do agree that extra CON is always useful, but the base mutagen already gives a nice boost. As for Dex the more the better sure, but it can't increase the AC that much (even with a light armor) and the will save is already the worst I have, not sure I want to lose those 2 points of wis. All in all I think they are not worth the trouble if not in melee.
The base mutagen only boosts one ability. So you you want the attack bonus from dex, you can't have con.
I guess if you already have a crappy will save, that one point will not make that much of a difference ;-)
I think you missed the 2 INT points hit when using this...
Nah, I didn't. Something that can be taken care of easily by using lesser restoration. Do it on a slow day and you won't miss the 2nd-level slot. The int damage goes away easily, but the backup mutagen stays!
I didn't see it that way, so... not totally useless... still is it worth a discovery slot ?
I'd say so. It only gets more cost-effective. Your caster level will go up, but the price won't. At level 20, a potion of haste that gives you the full benefit of the spell at that level would cost you 2000 gp (1000 to create)! So each time you use this feat, you save 50%!
If it was at will (but only one time per potion) I might start to consider that maybe it has some use. (and depending on your level the time to make a potion as an alchemist can be really short indeed)
Everything over 250gp will take at least one day. And that's everything except 1st-level potions that are created at caster level 5 and below (and 0-level potions, but let's just ignore them) - in other words: Everything that will provide a significant financial return from this. So if you use dilution, you can dilute as many potions as you can create in a day, not counting potions so cheap you wouldn't get that much of a price break, anyway.
It's a really good (awesome even) idea, but a bit out of character for my alchemist (yeah I'm still cursed with a bit of RP...)
Nothing to do with "being cursed with a bit of RP". You didn't exactly go into exacting detail about your character, and this idea seems right up the alley of a dexterous bomber. Not every nimble user of bombs will close his eyes to everything except chucking them around.
I agree with you it's like an extra magic item (in fact that's exactly the conclusion I came to), but limited to lvl 3 spells when you are lvl 16. Haste is obviously the first to come to mind, but potions of haste might achieve the same result, and low level extract are here for that to...
It might be "only" for spells of 3rd level or lower, but that can include some real nice effects if you consider that it's permanent:
As to the question about my choice of discoveries:
If I made a "bomber" alchemist (that also supports his peeps), I might go about it like this:
Smoke bombs
Infusion
Precise bombs
Force bombs
Fast bombs
Poison Bomb
Extend Potion
Eternal Potion
Delayed Bomb
Greater Mutagen
Madness Bomb
+Awakened Intellect
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The build I'm currently looking at with bombs & support goes:
2nd - Precise Bombs
4th - Infusions
6th - Explosive or Frost Bomb (haven't decided yet)
8th - Fast Bombs
10th - Potent Bomb (unless during play I decide I need something else)
12th - Dilution (everyone needs more potions!)
14th - Potent Bomb (as above)
16th - Grand Mutagen (as the lvl 14 ability makes Mutagens last 1hr per level this will last 16 hrs a day... You could go with Greater Mutagen at lvl 12 and not suffer the Int hit, but +6 Nat AC and +8/+6/+4 Alchemical Bonus is pretty good (+8/+6 to Dex/Con with the +4 to Str), this nets you an AC bonus of +10, +4 to hit with your bombs, +4 to Init and all your Dex skills and a sweet 48 extra hp).
18th - Potent Bomb (again)
20th - still haven't decided what to plug in here as I'm not sure our game will actually go upto lvl 20 anyway... (but since it is Kingmaker I would prolly take the Philosopher Stone... more MONEY!)
I was seriously tempted with the Potion route (Extend/Enhance/Eternal), and there are still spots were I could tweak and put them in.
Assume you are a 10th lvl Alchemist
Potion of Mage Armor (lvl 1 potion, 50gp) drink and use Enhance & Extend on it. Treat the potion as lvl 10 (duration 10hrs) and double it, 20hrs for +4 Armor Bonus...
Boost your level to 20 and you have a +4 armor bonus for 40hrs for a mere 50gp. And if someone tries to dispel it... the caster level is treated as lvl 20.
Hmm, as I type this I may have to try and squeeze some of this in. :)
All I have to say is to the original poster: great Discworld reference name.
OK I think the forum lost my previous answer, if not, sorry for the double post.
All I have to say is to the original poster: great Discworld reference name.
Thank you I wondered if someone would get it. :)
I praise you for your knowledge of the best author there ever was ;)@W. John Hare: You seem to go for more damage and less "subtlety". But you definitely want frost bomb (or any over kind of elemental damage) over explosive bomb, if you take only one of the two. The day you have to deal with... let's say a red dragon... you'll be happy to have something else to throw than fire and more fire...
As a side note, at lvl 20 you gain 2 discoveries and 1 grand discovery (and for RP reasons I'd probably choose an eternal life)
Enlarge person - A lot of cheaper than using permanency!
Barkskin - This gives you a free amulet of natural armour (+5 at 12th level), costing a lot less than the real thing, and not taking up a slot!
Water breathing: Yay! Great if you want to make a sub-marine expedition
Tongues: Shatter that language barrier!
Fly. Yeah, it's flying all day long. Not exactly cheap if you want to do it any other way
Haste. This is so awesome I can't even begin to explain it. Except that an item that would make you hasted all day would cost a couple of kingdoms. (Compared to that, those Philosopher's Stones are mere paperweights!)
Why would I want to be enlarged ? As a bomb thrower there's no benefit in it. Barkskin won't stack with the armor bonus of your mutagen. Tongues : useful ?yes. But permanent ? No. Water breathing : been there, done that, not worth it ;) Fly, maybe. And haste will always be cast on the party thanks to our sorceress (I know eternal potion is still better).
So for eternal potion, yes I do agree it's amazing, and is probably powerful enough to be worth two discoveries. Still for the sake of the discussion I want to see all the angles. And maybe the whole possibilities of what you and others can do, could diminish its usefulness in game.And of course the effect of the potion might be dispelled just as any other buff.
Again I don't say that I won't take it, but two discoveries, damn, that's hard !
Nah, I didn't. Something that can be taken care of easily by using lesser restoration. Do it on a slow day and you won't miss the 2nd-level slot. The int damage goes away easily, but the backup mutagen stays!
Are you sure you can do that ? For me the -2 INT works just like an enhancement item, you have the penalty as long as you have the item.
Because if you can do that, what is the point of having INT damage in the first place ? To limit the number one alchemist can make per day ? I think I could make 20 mutagens a day...I guess if you already have a crappy will save, that one point will not make that much of a difference ;-)
As one might say : lol !
How many time did that one point save your life ? (but I'm sure you knew it already and were joking)Is the increase in Dex a fair trade ? It depends, if you're frightened, or paralysed, it won't serve you that well ;)
To illustrate: I did drink a Dex mutagen during last play, and just after the DM said « A red dragon comes, make your will save »... well, OK, I rolled a 20, but my point stands ;)
To conclude, my list of discoveries match yours until the 12th lvl, after that... I don't know.
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I have to agree that Permanent Potion is incredibly awesome. I use it for permanent Good Hope (+2 morale bonus on saving throws, attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls. and morale stacks with nearly any other permanent effects) but permanent haste is great too. Good hope helps mitigate some of your will save issues which is good IMO. The only bummer is it is likely the first effect to get dispelled unless you raise the caster level of the potion. I keep a few spare potions around just in case.
Not sure exactly how fast bombs work in conjunction with other discoveries, hopefully it's cleared up in the final version. Fast bombs is either silly weak or ridiculously strong depending on whether you allow it to be used with other discoveries. Being able to toss poison bomb and stink bomb in the same round would be nuts.
Not sure exactly how fast bombs work in conjunction with other discoveries, hopefully it's cleared up in the final version. Fast bombs is either silly weak or ridiculously strong depending on whether you allow it to be used with other discoveries. Being able to toss poison bomb and stink bomb in the same round would be nuts.
It never occurred to me that fast bombs might not work with other discoveries, and I won't even consider it, combining different bombs is part of the fun of the class IMHO.
And yes eternal potion has a requirement, otherwise it would be a no brainer.
And Good hope is a good spell, you just have to find a bard who can brew potions I guess.
In our 7th level game the stink bomb is /awesome/ it has to do with how Stinking cloud and Nausia work. They dont just stop being nausiated when the cloud appears but 1d4+1 rounds after they leave the cloud.
You throw the bomb in to soften stuff up and let your party use the cover to approach bad guys. its worked wonders.
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In our 7th level game the stink bomb is /awesome/ it has to do with how Stinking cloud and Nausia work. They dont just stop being nausiated when the cloud appears but 1d4+1 rounds after they leave the cloud.
You throw the bomb in to soften stuff up and let your party use the cover to approach bad guys. its worked wonders.
This is what I'm hoping. My PFS bomber took smoke bomb at 2nd and is taking stink bomb at 4th. Hopefully get a lot of mileage out of that trick.
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Are you sure you can do that ? For me the -2 INT works just like an enhancement item, you have the penalty as long as you have the item.
Because if you can do that, what is the point of having INT damage in the first place ? To limit the number one alchemist can make per day ? I think I could make 20 mutagens a day...
Infuse mutagen: When the alchemist creates a mutagen, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. This inflicts 2 points of Intelligence damage to the alchemist and costs 1,000 gp in rare reagents, but the mutagen created persists on its own and is not rendered inert if the alchemist creates another mutagen.
Emphasis mine. It very clearly states int damage, which can be healed with lesser restoration. It does not say this int damage persists for as long as the mutagen remains, just the process causes 2 int damage. Easily cured with your lesser resto. The int damage plus the 1000g of mats are there as you said, to limit how many you can make in a day. If you have a lot of time and a lot of money, nothing says you can stock pile up extras to take with you on your next adventure. Wouldn't be very useful otherwise, using a discovery to make only a second mutagen? When at higher levels one will last pretty much all day? Thats my thinking on it anyway, and how our group views it. YMMV as always!
What about Shock Bomb? OK, the dazzled condition is not overwhelming, far from it, but there's no saving throw allowed. A -5% chance to hit is not something very noticeable in combat, but if you have other means to debuff your opponents, those penalties could add up and become interesting. For example, an 8th-level alchemist with fast bomb could throw an Tanglefoot Bomb to an opponent, giving it the entangled condition (–2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity), and then throw a Shock Bomb with his second attack, giving to his opponent a total penalty of -3 on melee attack rolls in a single round, and -5 on ranged attack rolls. Add a fighter with Dazzling Display in the party and now that opponent has a -5 penalty melee on attack rolls, -7 on ranged attack rolls. Plus, a bomb that explodes into lightning bolts is visually cool... in my mind. So, do you think Shock Bomb can be worth a discovery?
How do people even find threads from two years ago to necrobump?
Like this. :p
(Plus the search engine helps loads).