Exactly.
I'm on record as having said that the magic item shop is among the top ten dumbest ideas in the game. I think all the major reasons have already been presented by other people in this thread.
And this is a -good- thing, in my opinion. I hate it when magic items become just a financial exchange away. Magic items should be rare and noteworthy.
Then you must prefer the 3.5 system of item crafting, where magic item shops didn't make sense on an industrial scale, due to XP costs.
In Paizo's system, it's no different from changing trees into lumber or stone into decorative art works. Stone + time + skill = profit is no different than Gold + time + symbolic stick = magic staff for sale.
Magic item crafting in the Pathfinder system is simply an artisanal system in which the crafter uses gold to make something that may have a higher demand than the amount of gold required to make it.
OK, I think I've got it. It depends on the number of people who have disposable income available. Or: Cinematic Cash Flow = Cinematic Shopping.
We run with a variant of the old Arcane/Mercane race.
I.E Wandering, plane hopping magic item merchants.
They find you if they think you're in the market/have the cash bringing a few select items that they believe will interest you.
If you hurt/attack them, you can never trade with any of their race again.
IT's not a Ye Olde Magic Shoppe...
...it's a Ye Olde Magic Item Franchise!
Then you must prefer the 3.5 system of item crafting, where magic item shops didn't make sense on an industrial scale, due to XP costs.
I am of the opinion tha regardless of the crafting system, Shoppes that regularly sell true magic weapons, staves, wands, and the whatnot belong only in games of the monty haul variety. On rare occasions I might give the players an opportunity to have an item crafted but they will be rare and far between, and restricted to an arbitrary list of my own choosing.
Noe of this. "Okay Raul, I'd like a Holy Avenger please, try to have it ready by next Wednesday my good man."
I think a lot of what people are talking about is low level crafters, not people who can make a Holy Avenger, which requires lvl 18 cleric or paladin. A lvl 6 wizard can make just about any wonderous item and can get +2 weapons, a very reasonable thing. Lvl 6 casters are rare, but not that uncommon in large cities.
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Bit the tracks on where the thread is going but who cares!
This last friday my group had its chance to get back to town, go shopping and so forth. The whole session was compromised of RP in terms of getting what they want, finding it, getting it made, and how they handled it.
For instance the monk was looking to pick up a Cold Iron Temple Sword, so he told me "I want to buy a Cold Iron Temple Sword." He got a blank stare and I told him, "Ok, how do you want to go about doing it?"
He is a new player to the group and I caught him off guard, he was expecting a weapon shop right outside the inn with a full stock of masterwork and magical items.
Long story short him and the fighter had a nice little encounter with a Dwarven Guard with Alzheimers. Took them on a wild goose chase for several hours(In game) repeating himself over and over, and forgetting what was going on a number of times.
It took about 3 repetitions of the phrase "COLD IRON?! I love cold iron! Nothing like cold iron runing through your enemies gut." for them to REALLY get what was going on. He wandered off after a while. That's what you get for asking the nearest Dwarf where you can find weapons instead of doing a little bit of footwork. Eventually they worked their way to a monastery where with a nice donation and a pledge to service at a later date they each got a nice thing to hit monsters over the head with.
The sorcerer and ranger ended up finding an upscale clothing shop run by ... the only way I can describe it is a Chinese Dwarf couple who didn't speak very good common. Communication was difficult, The word "Magical" didn't translate very well and after each mundane hat or shinny bauble they were shown the proprietor confidently stated "MAGICAL! Magical!" with a thumbs up.
Highhelm is a GREAT city, had plenty of fun with the place.
One of the best times the players have had in last few months. Only 1 combat session for each of the two groups of players.
Really, there's nothing stopping a Wizard from having a selection of +1 Weapons and Armor hanging on the wall, a selection of ornate lanterns, mithril-filigree-wrapped rods of carefully dyed cherry-wood with Continual Flame enchanted onto the 'business' end, very minor magical items like this.
Now, big stuff, like a +3 Mithril Breastplate with the Glamered Enchantment would have to be a special order, and 1/2 up front and in advance. The Item in question isn't given to the customer until after the final gold piece is handed over. The Crafting Wizard can craft the item in question for a mere 7,950 gold, while the customer has to pay 15,900 gold pieces.
Incidentally, I've always ignored the 'players can only sell for half price' rule, which to me is an arbitrary rule to avoid players breaking the gold limit. If the PCs are able to find a buyer, well and good, but they have to deal with taxes, certain trade Guilds getting all up in their business at stepping into 'protected' trades, their wares winding up in the hands of ruthless assassins and the divinations leading back to the PCs, so on and so forth. If PCs want to spend time crafting for gold, well and good ... throw stuff at them that makes it impractical to keep doing so for level after level after level. Nothing is stopping a Cleric from sitting down for a few months as the rest of the Party tend to other matters that would leave the Cleric hanging around like a fifth wheel, making some cheap magical items and selling them at 70% of their Selling Cost, paying 30% in tithes, taxes, bribes etc, and using a portion of those funds to help his or her temple, and the rest as seed-money to increase his or her own armaments.
All rules are arbitrary, it's a good streamlined rule for what one could expect in such a setting. Heck, go to a pawnshop today and see if you could get as much as half value for any item you want to sell. Remember that the shop owner is looking to make a profit himself, and at best, has a limited clientele who might buy the item you're trying to pawn off.Incidentally, I've always ignored the 'players can only sell for half price' rule, which to me is an arbitrary rule to avoid players breaking the gold limit.
Yes, but if you open up a shop to effectively become the pawn broker, you can expect to make significantly more money selling the goods. The 50% rules is a fast and loose rule for selling to the pawn broker, but if the players want to take the effort in game to set up shop and run a buisness, or go and do the groundwork to find the people the pawn broker would have sold to, why should they expect to make the same ammount?
And before you go and tell me that the game is about running off and killing stuff to get money, not about the ecconomic sim, I will tell you that some of my favorite sessions in games were about how to handle the loot that we got. One session we spent a couple hours discussing how we would offload 20 masterwork crossbows we picked up off of some caravan guards in the hopes to turn maybe a few hundered extra gp. It was a hell of a lot of fun.
Then you must prefer the 3.5 system of item crafting, where magic item shops didn't make sense on an industrial scale, due to XP costs.
I am of the opinion tha regardless of the crafting system, Shoppes that regularly sell true magic weapons, staves, wands, and the whatnot belong only in games of the monty haul variety. On rare occasions I might give the players an opportunity to have an item crafted but they will be rare and far between, and restricted to an arbitrary list of my own choosing.
Noe of this. "Okay Raul, I'd like a Holy Avenger please, try to have it ready by next Wednesday my good man."
I view buying magic equipment as a whole lot like buying a car today. In a small town there is likely no car dealership at all. In a middle sized city you can buy most of the low end to moderately luxury models. In a big city you can get a BMW or a Lexus maybe a Porche...but to get a Lambo you got to order it from the one place in the world that makes them and you will be put on a waiting list no matter how important or rich you might be.
So yes there is one guy in the world, maybe two who could craft you a holy avenger...but what are you going to do for him, to skip to the front of the line and get one.
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And before you go and tell me that the game is about running off and killing stuff to get money, not about the ecconomic sim, I will tell you that some of my favorite sessions in games were about how to handle the loot that we got. One session we spent a couple hours discussing how we would offload 20 masterwork crossbows we picked up off of some caravan guards in the hopes to turn maybe a few hundered extra gp. It was a hell of a lot of fun.
+1, and heck I'll throw in a minor wondrous item
Type 4 Necklace of Fireballs?! SCORE!
In my campaign world, I have a number of nations scattered throughout the continent. The majority of "magic shops" are either minor wizard shops dealing in components and very minor items, or powerful wizards who have a reputation of trading, selling, or buying items from others, and will even build some for others, all for a particular price.
On the otherhand, in one nation, where a very powerful mage lived 200 years ago, he established a franchise of magic emporiums, that deals in items from components and minor items up to major items. There is only about nine or so of these shops throughout the nation, and all are in large cities of 50,000+ people. They trade, create, buy, and sell items of all kinds, and move their wares between the stores via magical dimensional chests.
Now, not everything you want will be there, but there is a chance to find what you want (although it may be slim). You can put in orders, buy the minor stuff pretty readily (potions, minor scrolls, and very minor miscellaneous items), and you might find a few weapons, an armor or two, a few wands, maybe a rod or staff, and a few medium to major miscellaneous, all of whose availability can change withn a week or a few day's time, depending upon what the other shops throughout the land have in their inventory. Thus, much of what may available in a given emporium will be random, except the simple and minor common items. As a DM, you contol what the most powerful level of items there are available at the time the PCs enter, depending upon their actual class levels. Thus, a 10th level party may only find mostly minor and some moderate items in the shop, while an 18th level party might find minor up to major items available, yet still not in great quantity.
I run these shops like an antique shop is run now - people come in, look, might find what they want, and can trade, barter, or buy.
Another option is the Bazaar approach. In most medium size and major cities, they hold bazaars in the city square. Since most common people couldn't identify a magic item if it was right in their face, I allow PCs to peruse the bazaar, and they have a very small chance (1-3%, maybe up to 5% depending where they are) of minding an item not identifies as such. They can then buy it as a nonmagical item, since the seller has no idea what it is. Even in this case however, the items are still trinkets - minor potions, very minor amulets or rings, etc. Things possibly sold in a bazaar of "garage sale" today.
All these options can be easily controled, since much is truly random (or DM "randomized") but allows the PCs the chance to obtain items wither through purchasing, trading, or iOf course, yn a fou can customize this all to reflect the magic level of your campaign. I believe in a fantasy RPG, there should be opportunities to get items in other ways other than adventuring for them, though it shouldn't be common in the least to do so.
Thats my 2 bits.