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I hope someone can offer an official answer to this long and rambling question. But I would not mind having a lively debate either.
I am playing a monk that I want to be an great grappler/ pinning guy.
I have found a number of threads on the boards discussing grappling/ rope tying and manacles.
None of them seem to clarify or give any kind of ruling concerning manacles or being tied up.
The description of manacles:
Manacles can bind a Medium creature. A manacled creature can use the Escape Artist skill to slip free (DC 30, or DC 35 for masterwork manacles). Breaking the manacles requires a Strength check (DC 26, or DC 28 for masterwork manacles). Manacles have hardness 10 and 10 hit points.
My group and I are unsure as to what action is used to "bind" a creature via manacles and what the "condition" or "negative" happens to be once they have the manacles on them. I mean its obvious what you have to do to get out but no mention as to what they can do while they have the manacles on them?
Basically do they gain the pinned condition or something else?
And what action is it to place manacles on a creature?
You could rule that they are bound (which is an adjective that falls under the "helpless" condition according to SRD) but not clearly defined in the Core book. This seems to go hand and hand with using rope to tie up a creature.
I personally think that you could have manacles that are made to bind a creatures hands and feet achieving the same result as tying them up. But that leads to the next question. Does tying them up work like pinning them as it seems to imply here?
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
or could you use it to work like the "bound" adjective from helpless condition?:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Last few somewhat related questions:
1. If you attempting to grapple a creature (using your CMB vs his CMD) and you have the improved grapple feat you gain a +2 to your CMB do to so. It also states a +2 bonus on your CMD for grapples made against you.
I seem to think you would gain the +2 to CMD vs a creature that you have grappled and is attempting to break free or reverse the grapple as stated here:
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can).
On the other hand I think you would not get the additional +2 CMD bonus for Improved Grapple if they were to use the Escape artist since its not a combat maneuver check.
2. Under the grappled condition it states the following:
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
I assume that the -4 dex applies to both the grappler and grapplee since they both gain the grappled condition. But it seem that it hinders the grappler on the 1st round of the grapple since he basically gains a -2 to his CMD for the grapplee to break out since dex loss does not effect CMB in most cases.
So what if the grapplee is using Escape Artist vs a grappler that has Improved Grapple on the first round of the grapple. Then grapplee has is best chance of escape since the grappler has a -2 to his CMD due to Dex loss and loses the +2 CMD for Improved Grapple for a net loss of -4.
I stated that these minuses are for the first round but upon further reading it may always apply. It states that "if your target does not break the grapple then you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target. Is that a +5 on just "moving" "damaging" "pinning" or "tie up"? Or does that give you a +5 to your CMD making it harder for your opponent to break free? Which in all reality only a net +3 since you lose -2 for Dex and only a net +1 if they are trying to Escape Artist.
I guess to sum it up does the +2 bonus from Improved Grapple always apply to your CMB and CMD when it has to do with grappling or does it only apply to select parts of grapple?
I think it should always apply to CMB/ CMD in any grapple situation. Since you are clearly a superior grappler to the Average Joe!
What does everyone else think?
Thanks for reading and sorry for the long rambling post!
Good Night!
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I would go otherwise restrained, as per your second quote. It's not as restrictive as being tied up. Manacles allow you to use your hands, and to walk, and leave a character with a LOT more mobility than the classic rope tying.
I would count him as grappled, as long as he's manacled. Anyone who subsequently grappled with him would start out with the bonus for having already succeeded.
1. I would apply the bonus +2 to cmd only on attempts to institute a grapple against you, and when they try to wrest control for themselves. The feat itself says "whenever an opponent tries to grapple you."
I wouldn't apply it to any of the abilities within the feat though.
2. Yes, it applies to both grapplers. The +5 applies to maintaining the grapple. While grappling allows you to perform various actions like move, damage, pin, tie up, and so on, they are special actions and not themselves a grapple. So the +5 doesn't apply there. Basically, once you've succeeded on your turn, you use an action to maintain the grapple with a +5 bonus. On the opponent's turn, they use an action to try to break the grapple, and your cmd gains the +5 circumstance bonus.
There is a thread floating around that talks about grapple and the devs intents on how it's supposed to work. You should see if you can hunt it down, might be useful to you.
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2. Yes, it applies to both grapplers. The +5 applies to maintaining the grapple. While grappling allows you to perform various actions like move, damage, pin, tie up, and so on, they are special actions and not themselves a grapple. So the +5 doesn't apply there. Basically, once you've succeeded on your turn, you use an action to maintain the grapple with a +5 bonus. On the opponent's turn, they use an action to try to break the grapple, and your cmd gains the +5 circumstance bonus.
I don't see anything in the rules that would indicate that you'd get a +5 to CMD for maintaining a grapple.
"If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5
circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the
same target in subsequent rounds."
Only your check is mentioned, nothing about CMD getting the bonus.
Also, the bonus applies to "grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds". All you need to do while in a grapple to move, damage, pin, tie up and so on is to succeed on a grapple check, which clearly does get a +5 bonus in this case.