Hello everybody,
This is my first post here so in order to introduce myself let's just say that I have played AD&D and D&D for years, and that I am currently playing a dwarf alchemist in my first Pathfinder game.
To get to the point:
1) Paizo has made quite a few change in the way INT works, now a permanent increase in the INT score has a retroactive effect on skill points per level. OK that's great. But I need a bit of clarification about how the "Headband of Vast Intelligence" works.
I quote:
This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.
RAW it doesn't say precisely that the skill points thus earned replace those normally earned by a raise of INT, so you could gain both the skill points of the increased INT and the skill points described with the headband.
RAI I'd say that you don't have the benefit of the raised INT, but that's not that obvious (for me at least). So what do you think ?2) At character creation you gain a number of bonus languages equal to your INT bonus. Does that number increase with your INT ? (and what happens when your INT bonus exceed the number of bonus languages your race knows ?)
3) It seems there's no penalty in choosing a non-class skill in PF (except losing the 3 points bonus) is that exact ?
That's all for this post, thanks in advance !
1. You get the skill associated with the headband. 1 point per hd per +2.
2. You would get new additional bonus languages. It's up to the DM if this number exceeds the ones associated with the race selected.
3. That is correct. Note that the +3 is not "ranks", just an untyped bonus.
Also note that the "free" skills from the head band are set and not changeable. This makes making your own head band, if you have the feat, better as you can choose the skill. A random found item may already be a skill you know... and as the skill points don't stack you would just use the one with the higher total... meaning the head band as it is 1 rank per HD so it is already at max.
As far as the extra languages after the start of the game is concerned that is a little bit up to the DM. The free languages you get due to a high INT are limited by race as that is the average languages your race normally has contact with. If you are learning a new language after the start, most DM's would say you can spend the point on any language you have access to at the time you are learning it... probably something someone else in the party speaks. If it is during some down time and you are in a city it could be just about anything.
Thanks for the answers.
Since I just bought a +2 headband I asked my DM what choices I had in the town's stores.
As for the languages I agree that is up to the DM, but I wanted to know if there was a "legal" base.
And the lack of non-class skill penalty is a huge change, so many possibilities...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1) Paizo has made quite a few change in the way INT works, now a permanent increase in the INT score has a retroactive effect on skill points per level. OK that's great. But I need a bit of clarification about how the "Headband of Vast Intelligence" works.
I quote:
RAW it doesn't say precisely that the skill points thus earned replace those normally earned by a raise of INT, so you could gain both the skill points of the increased INT and the skill points described with the headband.
RAI I'd say that you don't have the benefit of the raised INT, but that's not that obvious (for me at least). So what do you think?
The headband has one or more specific skill(s) associated with it. These skills can be anything (Climb, Perception, Knowledge (Planes), whatever. Once you've worn the headband for 24 hours, you gain a number of ranks equal to your level in those skills (but you cannot exceed your level, so if you already had ranks in these skills, you only gain enough skill ranks to equal your level).
You do not also gain additional ranks to distribute for having a higher INT score. Other means of increasing your INT will give you ranks to ranks to freely distribute, including retroactive ranks as you point out, but the Headband of Vast Intelligence does not do this.
2) At character creation you gain a number of bonus languages equal to your INT bonus. Does that number increase with your INT ? (and what happens when your INT bonus exceed the number of bonus languages your race knows ?)
The RAW says that during character creation, your INT score determines "The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game."
That last bit, that I bolded, is there for a reason. Later when it says a permanent increase "might cause you to gain skill points and other bonuses", it is not breaking the above rule that your bonus languages are applied at the start of the game.
So no, increasing your INT score does not instantly pop new languages into your head. However, it does grant you extra skill points (unless your new INT came from a Headband of Vast Intellect) and you can spoend those skill points in the Linguistics skill, which does pop new languages into your head.
It would obviously be doing double-duty to give you free bonus languages AND let you put skill points into Linguistics, gaining 2 free languages every time you permanently raise your INT.
As for having enough bonus at the start of the game to exceed your racial list of bonus languages, I'm not sure that is possible. If it is, and if you fin a way to do it, then you should probably work with your DM to find appropriate additional languages. Of he just might decide that you've learned every possible language that your teachers/tutors/family could have taught you, and it's up to you to learn extra languages on your own by putting ranks into Linguistics.
3) It seems there's no penalty in choosing a non-class skill in PF (except losing the 3 points bonus) is that exact ?
Quite correct. If it's your class skill, your total skill bonus benefits from the +3 modifier. If not, then you don't have that modifier. Either way, it's only one skill point to raise both kinds of skills by one rank (the 3.x rule of paying two skill points to get one rank has been eliminated from Pathfinder).
I actually have to disagree with the majority on the Headband of Vast Intelligence. The headband grants a bonus to intelligence that is temporary for the first 24 hours. After 24 hours the boost becomes "permanent" as long as the headband as worn. It also gives you the special boost in skill ranks to certain skills (1 per +2 enhancement bonus of the item.)
Since the increase becomes permanent the following applies:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.(Emphasis Mine.)
Therefore, the wearer should gain additional skill points for the increased intelligence in addition to the special boost specifically for the headband.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I actually have to disagree with the majority on the Headband of Vast Intelligence. The headband grants a bonus to intelligence that is temporary for the first 24 hours. After 24 hours the boost becomes "permanent" as long as the headband as worn. It also gives you the special boost in skill ranks to certain skills (1 per +2 enhancement bonus of the item.)
Since the increase becomes permanent the following applies:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.(Emphasis Mine.)
Therefore, the wearer should gain additional skill points for the increased intelligence in addition to the special boost specifically for the headband.
I can see how you might read it this way. Others have read it this way too, and the Core rulebook is not really clear on this.
But Paizo has spoken on the subject and here is at least one official response:
I'll take the Creative Director's word for it.
@DM Blake: I don't think there's been an official ruling on this, but I think you're interpretation violates the "easier to calculate" standard that is the goal of PF.
@Knight of Styx: I'm positive you're wrong about that. The skill points gained from a +2 headband of intellect are, in fact, determined by the item.
|
After 24 hours the boost becomes "permanent" as long as the headband as worn...Therefore, the wearer should gain additional skill points for the increased intelligence in addition to the special boost specifically for the headband.
EDIT: *I stand corrected. Blake's link to Jacob's errata answers this. ignore below analysis*
As per the Rules under "Ability Scores." Effects boosting ability scores that last longer than 24 hours are considered permanent. Permanent boosts grant increased skill points. Please note this is a change from 3.5.
After wearing the Headband for 24 hours, you gain a permanent modifier, which will add skill points. However, since the item can be removed and thus remove those modifiers, you'd be best to keep an index card handy for when you have that item "on." (e.g. that while wearing the item past 24 hours you have a + ___ to this skill and that skill, DCs for spells are at +2, etc.)
To avoid stacking (casting Fox's Cunning after wearing the Headband), the bonus is still considered "enhancement."
It's weird. With the headband, you might add points to Linguistics, gaining several new languages, then forget them when you remove the headband. Such is the nature of magic...
@Knight of Styx: I'm positive you're wrong about that. The skill points gained from a +2 headband of intellect are, in fact, determined by the item.
If you would do me the honor and show me the RAW to back up you claim, I would greatly appreciate it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
After 24 hours the boost becomes "permanent" as long as the headband as worn...Therefore, the wearer should gain additional skill points for the increased intelligence in addition to the special boost specifically for the headband.As per the Rules under "Ability Scores." Effects boosting ability scores that last longer than 24 hours are considered permanent. Permanent boosts grant increased skill points. Please note this is a change from 3.5.
After wearing the Headband for 24 hours, you gain a permanent modifier, which will add skill points. However, since the item can be removed and thus remove those modifiers, you'd be best to keep an index card handy for when you have that item "on." (e.g. that while wearing the item past 24 hours you have a + ___ to this skill and that skill, DCs for spells are at +2, etc.)
To avoid stacking (casting Fox's Cunning after wearing the Headband), the bonus is still considered "enhancement."
It's weird. With the headband, you might add points to Linguistics, gaining several new languages, then forget them when you remove the headband. Such is the nature of magic...
Except, with that headband, you don't add any "skill points" to anything. You only get the automatic ranks in whatever skill(s) are built into the headband.
Now, maybe that headband has ranks in Linguistics. In that case, it should probably have the languages already defined, but that would be a big pain in the buttocks, since Dumbledore would get to learn 20 languages, so the list better have 20 languages in it just in case, but Ron Weasely might only learn just one language (so the list must also be ordered by which order the languages are learned). But that gets awkward if Hermione puts it on and already knows 17 of the languages on the list...
Or, maybe just go with "Hey, you just got x ranks in Linguistics, so choose x languages from any languages you want."
Either way, you're only getting instant languages (after wearing it for 24 hours) if the headband gives ranks in Linguistics.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you would do me the honor and show me the RAW to back up you claim, I would greatly appreciate it.
@Knight of Styx: I'm positive you're wrong about that. The skill points gained from a +2 headband of intellect are, in fact, determined by the item.
Read my post just after your first one. It answers your question.
|
|
Blake, I stand humbled and corrected. Couldn't get the link to Jacob's statement to load and went on without it. Just read it.
Seems this is an errata question, appreciate the find.
So no putting the headband on thinking "i'll need disable device this trip" and then handing to another thinking "he'll need more languages this next trip..."
Read my post just after your first one. It answers your question.If you would do me the honor and show me the RAW to back up you claim, I would greatly appreciate it.
@Knight of Styx: I'm positive you're wrong about that. The skill points gained from a +2 headband of intellect are, in fact, determined by the item.
I also bow to the almighty Tarrasque. I honestly think I'm going to start trolling your threads to make sure I completely understand things your topics, lol. Thanks for the insight!
Thank you DM_Blake for the answers and the link to James Jacobs post.
And I have to say that I really like what Paizo made with the skills.