Grapple vs Concentration...

[Nadalis]

So, we had a reunion of our yearly game last week, and converted to Pathfinder from 3.5. I found most all the changes to be imporvements, but I am a bit mized on the concentration idea. I love that is it tied to your primary casting stat, and no longer a skill. Melees don't need to max a skill swing their weapon so now casters don't need to a max a skill to cast etc etc.

But in playing I found concentration to be a bit underwhelming. I have played 3.5 for a while so I come from that background. Established storyline with some established characters. I missed the game last year, so I got to start with a 14th level character this year. I created my druid 3.5 style with modifications taking into account advice from the forums.

I've played long enough to know that you always have to have a backup plan, and or an escape plan. As a divine caster, always prepare freedom of movement. When I memorized my 6th level spells still, silent Freedom of Movement took up a slot thinking i'd use it as my get out of jail card should I need it in a jam. Boy was I wrong. We encountered a Purple Worm, and I just happen to be the first one swallowed. I tried my still silent FOM: Fail. I question the DM, (something I'm good at but shouldn't) and quickly learn the new rules for casting while grappled. There ain't no way in nine layers of hell, I ever make that concentration check 10+ CMB + spell level. I also quickly learn that It is almost pointless for me to memorize it silent, whatever.

The other party memebers that were not privy to this rules discussion learned later as we fought an ancient red dragon CMB of 43 which makes the concentration check 57 for dimension door or freedom of movement and 58 for teleport. None of the casters had concentration checks anywhere close to 37 or 38 making the normal caster escape methods impossible.

Are we missing something or does grapple trump concentration pretty bad now?

[Lazarus Yeithgox]

A 10th level fighter and a 10th level wizard, assuming the fighter's STR is on par with the Wizards INT, is basically a 50/50 chance. The Wizard can take Combat Casting to get +4, and the fighter needs both Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple that each give a +2.
A large monster with a high CMB trumps concentration unless you have an insane casting stat, Combat Casting and similar. The large creature is almost gauranteed to have a high BAB, high STR and a large size modifier.

Silent doesn't help you in this case, only Still maters. Silent might help if you were underwater, or grappled and silenced. As a house rule, I'd let Quicken help, as you could activate it just before you were grappled.

Freedom of movement also lasts 10 minutes per level, you could always cast it before the fight. With a duration of over an hour, (over two hours for a 14th level character), it could even last for a series of combats. Plus you don't need any metamagic feats to cast before combat, so you can save your 6th level spells.

[DarkKnight27]

Yeah, combat casting while swallowed whole or being tossed around like a rag doll by a huge or bigger creature is not going to happen. I'm running a group through Kingmaker (a great adventure path btw) and they got jumped by a shambling mound. It was very close to a TPK but they did win and no one died, but the grapple checks where almost not winnable by the party and the combat casting while grappled was just with-in their ability to make.

As a general rule Pathfinder has made casting spells more difficult so a caster cant just get swallowed or whatever and go "oh, I Dim. Door away to safety", "Oh, I cast FoM and walk away". Now casters have to be a bit more careful than they used to be.

[MicMan]

Yes, I second that. It was stupid in 3.5 that a caster with maxed skill could basically casting defensively in the face of a big monster with only minimal chance of failure - same in the case of being grappled or swallowed.

Casters had it too easy in 3.5 and now in Pathfinder they must position themselves correctly.

[Archmage]

Well i was wondering what kind of concentration check you have to make, when you (the caster) are grappled an there are some Enemy´s standing close enough that any attenpt to cast would Provoke AoO from them.

Do you have to make 2 concentration checks - one for being grappled and one for defensivly casting - or are these two rolls mixed somehow?

Grappled or pinned while casting 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level
Cast defensively 15 + double spell level

[BigNorseWolf]

Its part of pathfinders philosophy: Casters should not dominate every fight. Non casters should not be completely hosed past level 8. If the fighter with the two handed sword backs you into the corner, casting a fireball in his face should be HARD, not something you can succeed at with a roll of -6 or higher.

[DigitalMage]

Just so you know, adding Silent metamagic is unlikley to be necessary in Pathfinder as when Pinned the pinning character no longer has the option to prevent the pinned character speaking (like they did in 3.5).

[Kerym Ammath]

Not to be an @ss but consider yourself lucky. 3.x and the Concentration skill were at the heart of casters being better than everyone else. Pathfinder has attempted to rectify this to a degree. Personally I preferred 1st and 2nd where any disruption caused loss of the spell. In other words fear the thrown dagger, instead of making a successful concentration roll as the mountain lands on top of you. Casters used to have to be smart and ultimately had to rely on some really good meat shields making sure they had the opportunity to unleash mass destruction.

[Ravingdork]

Even if you have an eschewed, silent, stilled spell, you still have to make the stupid concentration check when grappled.

It hate it almost as much as the idea that people can identify your spellcasting even though you are casting an eschewed, silent, stilled spell.

[Havelock]

Ravingdork wrote:

Even if you have an eschewed, silent, stilled spell, you still have to make the stupid concentration check when grappled.

OTOH, you can whip out a wand and use that with no problem.