If you use shadow evocation to duplicate a lightning bolt, it deals electricity damage. Does it therefore gain the electricity subtype?
If you use shadow conjuration to mimic a summon monster IV, it uses material from the Plane of Shadow to create said creature. Does it therefore gain the summoning subtype (and thus is it subject to forbiddance?)?
I say kind of.
The shadow spells stay illusion spells no matter what they are pretending to be. However in the case of direct damage spells so long as the subject fails their will save then the lightning bolt does electric damage and is effected by Resist Energy et al. If the subject makes their will save then the spell does shadow damage and goes right through most anti-energy spells. Odd in some edge cases you might want to fail that will save.
It is less clear but the same twisted logic might work with shadow-summons and Forbiddance. Since Forbiddance creates a permanent effect and costs a good chunk of the readies to cast. Perhaps it could be considered an object for the purposes of the shadow-casting. Objects always pass the will save when interacting with these spells. This slightly bent thinking means that when you mimic your summon monster spells in a Forbidden area, or attempt to bring the mimicked monsters into such an area, they are stripped of their disguises and are treated as if everyone in the Forbidden area made their will save.
Mind you the logic here is a tad weak. I just like the idea of a great and powerful wizard sitting fat and happy behind a Resist energy getting a surprise while his poor abused meat shield fighter with the ring of fire resistance is safe when the fake fireball goes off.
for what it's worth
~will
I say kind of.
The shadow spells stay illusion spells no matter what they are pretending to be. However in the case of direct damage spells so long as the subject fails their will save then the lightning bolt does electric damage and is effected by Resist Energy et al. If the subject makes their will save then the spell does shadow damage and goes right through most anti-energy spells. Odd in some edge cases you might want to fail that will save.Mind you the logic here is a tad weak. I just like the idea of a great and powerful wizard sitting fat and happy behind a Resist energy getting a surprise while his poor abused meat shield fighter with the ring of fire resistance is safe when the fake fireball goes off.
for what it's worth
~will
That is actually not supported by the rules, PWO. The spell deals the energy damage that it is emulating, regardless of save or no save.
I understand that the spell is illusion regardless, and shadow regardless. The spell deals the energy type of damage that it emulates, regardless.
What I am not entirely certain about is if when it emulates a [fire] spell, does it take on the [fire] subtype itself? When Shadow Conj emulates summon monster III, is it a [summon] spell? Can you use shadow conjuration to summon monster in an area protected by forbiddance? If the spell takes on the subtype, the answer is no, you cannot. If the spell doesn't take on the subtype, the answer is yes you can.
I would say it doesn't gain the subtype, because the shadow evocation/conjuration spells don't mention changing the spells subtype.
So you are saying that they can deal fire damage without the [fire] subtype? And despite Shadow Conjuration drawing from another plane, because they don't have the [summon] subtype, they can be used in a forbiddance effect?
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I do believe that was implied by my statement.
The spell might deal fire damage, but it retains the shadow subtype.
If you look at forbiddance, it doesn't limit it by subtype. It specifies planar travel into or within it. "Such effects simply fail automatically."
Shadow conjuration says "You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces."
You're not actually doing any summoning. You're not bringing in a living creature. You're creating a fake creature. It should work in the same way that animating an undead creature would still work, or casting animate object. Heck, if merely drawing from another plane was negated, then no undead would function in a forbiddance area *devs have clarified they're powered through a connection to the negative energy plane. Evil souls and whathaveyou*, neither would ANY shadow-based spell. I'm sure there are other spells that would be affected as well, but I don't feel like looking for them.
Simply speaking, as per raw forbiddance stops a particular type of effect tied to the planes - planer traveling type spells - and does things to alignments entering the area. The effect doesn't reach beyond that to how some spells and abilities are powered.
Note that spells with one descriptor and two damage types exist in the book. Flame strike, Glyph of warding, meteor swarm, prismatic spray, I'm sure there's more but there you go.
To the extent of what I can find in the book, I believe this is how the raw works in this situation.
To clarify my understanding of the spell, I believe that just as a [summon] spell gains the [fire] subtype (and does not lose the [summon] subtype) when it summons a fire elemental, so too would the [shadow] spell gain the [summon] and [fire] subtypes (and retain the [shadow] subtype) when it summons a shadow fire elemental.
A shadow cone of cold would have the [shadow] and [cold] subtypes, as it is dealing cold damage via shadow material.
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To clarify my understanding of the spell, I believe that just as a [summon] spell gains the [fire] subtype (and does not lose the [summon] subtype) when it summons a fire elemental, so too would the [shadow] spell gain the [summon] and [fire] subtypes (and retain the [shadow] subtype) when it summons a shadow fire elemental.
A shadow cone of cold would have the [shadow] and [cold] subtypes, as it is dealing cold damage via shadow material.
As others have stated, this is not implicitly stated in the RAW, but the above is EXACTLY how it would work in my games. Shadow spells do not lose their existing type and subtype, but they do gain the subtypes of the spells they are emulating.
The summon spells specifically note in their description that they gain that subtype when used to summon specific monsters. Shadow Conjuration contains no such notation. Other spells with variable types mention in their descriptions as well that the type changes based on how the spell is use.. I see your point but the spell description does not follow that pattern.To clarify my understanding of the spell, I believe that just as a [summon] spell gains the [fire] subtype (and does not lose the [summon] subtype) when it summons a fire elemental, so too would the [shadow] spell gain the [summon] and [fire] subtypes (and retain the [shadow] subtype) when it summons a shadow fire elemental.
A shadow cone of cold would have the [shadow] and [cold] subtypes, as it is dealing cold damage via shadow material.
Final question then. Do you see anything game-breaking about having the spell work one way or the other? Assume a game where shadow evocation and conjuration are used heavily.
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I've seen shadow spells be used to try and bypass a repulsion, and to allow a good cleric to cast evil spells. Granted, both were WAAAY back in the day (3.0 era), with wacky multi-class builds, but still. I also don't have a major issue with shadow casters getting buffs from feats mean to target the spells the shadow is emulating, as the higher DC only helps make the spell more believable.
There used to be a prestige class, buried in one of the old FR books, something about Drow or Underdark I believe, that buffed the "real" part of shadow spells, but I don't remember the specifics.
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Well, adding additional descriptors to shadow spells makes them more likely to be affected by other spells and effects.
That would make them somewhat less useful, since those abilities that improve a characters spells will cause the character to memorize THOSE spells most of the time :D.
I can't really see any issues balance-wise going either way. The power differentiation, in my opinion, isn't really significant one way or the other.
There are some supplemental feats from the Undefeatable Shadow Dancer that can buff the %real on their shadow spells.
Personally, I'd rather allow the shadow conjuration spell to work in the forbiddance area than to deny it and have the shadow spells take advantage of, say, bonus damage to fire spells class feature. Plus, I think it leaves a bit more creative spell use options open, and that's always fun :)