Salutations gentlemen.
I seek ideas or advice for creating what is essentially a ranger but with no spells and the Hunter's Bond (Pet) at level 1, with ranger level equal to druid level for purposes of calculating the strength of the animal companion.
The player that I am designing this for wants to be focused around using a big knife in melee combat, alongside a wolf.
An important design consideration to keep in mind for the character is that the group is starting out at level 10, so the tumultuous sector of lower-level balance can be disregarded. This means that the extreme bonus of the pet at lower levels is lessened, whereas the loss of higher-level spells might be a more significant nerf to the ranger.
With this in mind, does the loss of spells balance with the much more powerful pet? Or do I need to nerf something else (HD, BAB, skills, proficiencies or class features)?
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
The spells make for a more versatile character, but the pet allows for more damage.
Since the pet benefits from the favored enemy boost it will hit really hard at times. It really depends on how much damage you deem to be acceptable.
A normal wolf(ranger level) can push about 35 points of damage per round when favored enemy is up.
If the character is starting at 10th level then why is it so important that he has the companion at first level?
I personally don't see a problem with the trade, honestly I think the trade makes the character less powerful.
Now if you would rather keep things fair then instead of changing things up look into the boon companion feat from, Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets... the feat can also be found online, but basically from what I understand is it let's your companion be treated up to 4 levels higher as if he were a druids animal companion. I could be Interpereting it wrong though so check it out for yourself, if it does work that way then he can have his spells and his companion by pathfinder rules
The spells make for a more versatile character, but the pet allows for more damage.
Since the pet benefits from the favored enemy boost it will hit really hard at times. It really depends on how much damage you deem to be acceptable.
A normal wolf(ranger level) can push about 35 points of damage per round when favored enemy is up.
Good point. Also, I didn't know that about the favored enemy bonus on the pet, thanks for the heads up. Even with 3 favored enemies at level 10 though, favored enemy might be a somewhat situational ability in my campaign, as I plan to have quite a variety of monster types for the players to face. Also, damage considerations are likely to be rather generous as I know one of the other players will be playing a charging cavalier.
If it turns out the pet is doing too much damage, I could simply remove the favored enemy bonus from it, or perhaps swap ranger's whole feature out for some bonus feats.
If the character is starting at 10th level then why is it so important that he has the companion at first level?
Because the animal companion is as strong as a druid companion of the same level, instead of 3 levels lower.
Now if you would rather keep things fair then instead of changing things up look into the boon companion feat from, Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets... the feat can also be found online, but basically from what I understand is it let's your companion be treated up to 4 levels higher as if he were a druids animal companion. I could be Interpereting it wrong though so check it out for yourself, if it does work that way then he can have his spells and his companion by pathfinder rules
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion
That is perhaps the most overpowered feat I have ever read about! I am not looking for something "Pathfinder Legal" per se, rather I am just looking for balance. As we all know the two are only seldom synonymous.It's sounding like I'm on the road to something that could be pretty balanced, especially if I play the part of the smart GM and adjust things as we play, but if anyone else has any ideas or opinions I'd love to hear them.
He loses a lot by giving up the spells. I am in a PbP where I dropped the spells. Many times I wish I could get them back. They are more valuable than I thought they were.
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Boon Companion overpowered? It's accomplishing pretty much what you're asking for; to have a ranger's animal companion be on the same power level as an equal-level druid animal companion.
All it does is make up for up to 4 levels of multiclassing with regards to a single companion critter. And with the loss of your spellcasting, you'll need every little bit of advantage.
Flagged to move to Homebrew...since that's what this is.
However...there's always boon companion, and... -- WHAT? you think that feat is overpowered?! Hah! Hahah!
No. The ranger will lose a lot from not having spells, and gain comparatively little from having a "full powered" animal companion. You are not close to balance with it, you are skewing strongly on the much weaker side of balance.
A wolf is hardly a combat beast compared to other heavy hitters like cats or bears seen following full-caster druids around. The wolf gets a single bite attack, ever. Other companions can have the claw/claw/bite routine, which is three times as awesome! :D
There is a feat called Boon Companion that covers what your player wants to do. Even if the feat is not an option for whatever insane reason, it's a measuring stick: the ranger's effective druid level is only his class level -3; giving up ALL of his spells for something a feat can fix is harsh.
No feat I know of gives you four levels of spellcasting, at ANY progression rate.
EDIT: Ninja'd twice while I laughed at the notion of this being overpowered.
Weighing in on the side that states a full powered animal companion is not worth the entire spell list.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---rang er-archetypes/beastmaster
Beastmaster nets you the full selection of companions and the ability to split the levels between multiples if you so choose to have them, grabs you full progression at 12, and a boosted version of link losing out on a bonus feat and camouflage.
The idea of trading spells for full progression animal companion is a far far cry from a good trade. As a point of comparison there are two archetypes that switch out spells and they add a great deal more than just 3 levels to an animal companion and the freedom to pick from the full druid list.
If you want an even better example of how to value an animal companion, take a note of falconer. Only gives up wild empathy and a 6th level combat feat for a full power animal companion, with extra powers and abilities for that companion to boot.
why not just take boon companion?
Giving up ranger spells means giving up allfood, arguably the best spell in the game.
It's been my recent experience with Rangers that most of their spell list is garbage, so the first thought would be that it would be a fair trade to trash spells and get an equal-to-druid-level companion. However, as mentioned, there are a few key spells that are really just so good that you'd almost have to be crazy to want to give them up.
Really glad to see so much contribution, thank you.
I understand that Boon Companion essentially solves all of my problems, but as a single feat I still think it is overpowered by itself when compared to most feats from non-accessory sources (it is unlikely that anyone in my group will be using accessories in character creation). Let me repeat that I am comparing this feat right now not to losing a spell list but rather to another feat.
On average, taking boon companion (let's call it BC) will grant your pet:
HD: +2.1
BAB: +1.65
Saves(good): 0.9
Saves(bad): 0.6
Skill ranks: +2.1
feats: +1.05
natural armor: +1.8
str: 0.9
dex: 0.9
any ability score: 0.6
tricks: 0.9
There are of course other class goodies that this feat brings you closer towards, such as the 4th level advancement, evasion and multiattack. Is it overpowered compared to the average feat? Well it is certainly at the top of the power curve, but there are only a few golden feats like this for a reason. Is it overpowered compared to a golden feat like Power Attack? I think BC and Power Attack probably yield a comparable increase in damage per turn for a player (if not more in favor of BC), and BC comes with the added bonus of more health, saves, armor, and even a feat (such as Power Attack) for your animal.
Introducing another golden feat like this one will of course make a class a lot more powerful: you wouldn't let someone take Power Attack twice, and have it stack with itself, would you? BC is also problematic because only very few classes can benefit from it. For example, compare a ranger with this feat with a fighter.
I am going to try to reel things back in. You are more than welcome to try to convince me that BC is not overpowered, but for the purposes of this class that I'm making let's assume that I will not be using Boon Companion.
Honestly, giving up spells will nerf him far more than the animal companion will help. Lead blades, gravity bow, instant enemy. . .
After looking at those spells I realized that, yeah, the ranger isn't only losing versatility (like allfood, definitely the best spell in any game) but also losing a fair amount of damage.
Nerfing spellcasting would be a good option, but I simply want to get rid of spellcasting altogether. TL;DR: Along with the druid pet, what buff do you guys think would be valid to make up for the loss of spellcasting? The Skirmisher archetype's Hunter's Tricks seem like they could be fitting, probably of a lesser amount than the Skirmisher gets.
And Foghammer, you're right, the wolf isn't so good compared to other animals. I'll probably just take lion stats and put them in a wolf's body or something. I'll work it out.
I generally value a spell level equal to about a feat slot, sometimes more if the spell level or list quality is very high. Due to this, a full-powered ac at level 4, as if it had boon companion, then give the companion a free feat whenever a new spell level would be gained.
Instead of asking if boon companion is overpowered, ask how on earth a wolf could survive in melee for more than 2 rounds with an appropriate CR creature of level 10.
In fact, let's take a look, as this intrigues me.
Level 7 Animal Companion has 6 hd, +4 nat ac, +2 str dex, bab 4
Wolf
So we have Wolf (With a +1 ability to say, Con)
Hitpoints: 6d8+30 = 57
Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC 17 Attack bite +10 (1d8+9 plus trip); Ability Scores Str 23, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Lets throw it into a scrum with a melee Cr 10 opponent that happens to get ticked off at it. Maybe a 1st edition monster, classic D&D, a Fire Giant.
Relevant Stat line
Melee greatsword +21/+16/+11 (3d6+15) [avg ~25]
Melee greatsword power attack +18/+13/+8 (3d6+24) [avg 34]
AC 24
So a power attacking fire giant would most likely kill a rangers wolf in one round, if you play your game the way it was intended, where animals are not telepathic genius's and you abide by the handle animal rules, there's a very good chance that an undirected wolf will end up in melee with said fire giant if his master engages it.
Now I for one like my players, and I like them to enjoy their pets when they have them, and personally I hate dealing with the constant pet rituals to re-summon new ones, to say nothing if they are in an environment where there are no wolves.
Bottom line, does boosting an animal companion ruin a game: usually no.
Does having a tough enough to survive animal companion make a game more fun for a ranger: usually yes.
I digress though, it is your game.
(A level 10 wolf would have +29 hp, +3 Ac, +3 to hit +1 to damage, and a second attack at a -5 penalty, just for reference)
(A level 10 wolf would have +29 hp, +3 Ac, +3 to hit +1 to damage, and a second attack at a -5 penalty, just for reference)
Natural weapons don't gain iterative attacks from high bab, so I believe the wolf would just have 1 attack.
Natural weapons don't gain iterative attacks from high bab, so I believe the wolf would just have 1 attack.
Multiattack feat
Natural weapons don't gain iterative attacks from high bab, so I believe the wolf would just have 1 attack.Multiattack feat
Multiattack (Monster)
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
Doesn't look like it gives any more attacks, just lowers the penalty for secondary attacks. So where is this wolf getting the other natural attacks from?
Special animal companion section:
Multiattack
An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
When the PC gets 9 effective druid levels he gets a second attack.
Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.
edit:ninja'd by about 30 seconds
Boon companion is not overpowered: many rangers, especially archers but it could be the same for TWFers, will not take it until past level 10 because there are far more important things to take before it.
A druid companion not buffed is not really impressive: a ranger one simply sucks past at mid-high level. Boon companion is not going to let you have a death machine at your command, it will simply let you keep your pet alive when flanking and sometimes let it land a couple of bites.
^^^^ after thinking about it a little more I came back to point out this same variant, if this isn't what you're looking for then perhaps lessening the amount of spells per day would help? Or alike mentioned above adding bonus feats in to help off set the power loss from spells.
You could try giving him spell like abilities of one or two main spells of each spell level that would be detrimental for him to loose, (ex. When he would gain second level spells give him allfood as a spell like ability usable 1/day)
I picked up the above mentioned when kobolds quarterly ran a special to nab a free issue, any way, the main things that are changed (aside from giving some great ranger feats and tricks) on it are starting at second level and every 5 there after the ranger gets a sneak attack of 1d6, 3rd level he gets natures healing, which gives a +2 to the heal skill and the ability to heal 1d6 damage (+1 for every point he beats the dc) without a healing kit, but only if he's in his favored terrain. It also gives fast movement +10 at 5th level and again at 12th.
With the above mentioned I think I would use this build, take out natures healing, and add in the full animal companion.
Hope i've helped some
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IWith the above mentioned I think I would use this build, take out natures healing, and add in the full animal companion.
One quick correction: there's no need to 'take out natures healing and add in the full animal companion' - when the spell-less ranger gets his animal companion at 4th level, he gets it at his full level (as opposed to a standard ranger, who gets it at his level -3)
...Nerfing spellcasting would be a good option, but I simply want to get rid of spellcasting altogether. TL;DR: Along with the druid pet, what buff do you guys think would be valid to make up for the loss of spellcasting? The Skirmisher archetype's Hunter's Tricks seem like they could be fitting, probably of a lesser amount than the Skirmisher gets...
I suggest checking out the ranger archtypes that take away spell casting and see what they offer in compensation. Take one/some of those items in addition to the full level for the companion.
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I think you might want to take a look at the Spell-less Ranger class varient in Kobold Quarterly #11.
Full druid level animal companion, no spells, stealth attack, ranger talents etc - I think it might be right up your alley!
And I think I heard that some supplement with even more Marc Radle goodness should be released some time soon for this excellent variant. I hope it will come out soon, as my birthday is just around the corner.
IWith the above mentioned I think I would use this build, take out natures healing, and add in the full animal companion.
One quick correction: there's no need to 'take out natures healing and add in the full animal companion' - when the spell-less ranger gets his animal companion at 4th level, he gets it at his full level (as opposed to a standard ranger, who gets it at his level -3)
Ah, sorry I guess I over looked that part
I disagree than Boon Companion is unbalanced.
I wrote a much longer post, but decided to make it more concise:
Natural Spell > Boon Companion
There are dozens of feats that players scoff at, that have places only in the most obscure of builds (or de-optimizer builds). Endurance? Die Hard? (More like deathtrap.) Enforcer? Eschew Materials? A lot of feats are houseruled to be free.
Boon Companion may grant what amounts to a numerically greater value than any other feat, but it grants that bonus to a very select number of classes (or builds), all of which find the feat to be a necessity. Otherwise, the companion gets left behind and is a complete waste of a class feature. A ranger's companion with only a -3 to level is a combat liability if the role is played in a believable manner.
This discussion could go back and forth, but I think the fact that the community at large accepts and promotes the feat should be enough to convince you.