The Eidolon's Bite Strength


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

On page 34 of the Advanced Player's Guide Final Playtest PDF, it is stated that:

Quote:
All natural attacks are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted. Eidolon attacks add the eidolon’s Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier.

On page 36, in the evolutions section, the rules for the bite evolution are as follows:

Quote:
Bite (Ex) : An eidolon’s maw is full of razor-sharp teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.

So, what happens if you take the quadruped base form (which receives only a bite attack to start with) and then spend one evolution point on the bite attack "upgrade?" Are there any rules that govern situations where there are multiple "bonuses" to the amount of strength damage that applies to an attack? Do the bonuses stack somehow, further increasing the amount of damage the eidolon gets from its strength (strength bonus x2 perhaps)? Or do they not stack at all, rendering the bite evolution upgrade useless for the above-mentioned eidolon? My intuition suggests that allowing some form of stacking would be fair, as the only way to achieve this would be to only have one attack on the eidolon. However, I'd prefer an official answer to this question, assuming there is one to be found.

EDIT: Furthermore, assuming that stacking is allowed, what happens when the eidolon Power Attacks? Does that damage get upgraded as well?

Dark Archive

Can you specify this "bite attack upgrade"? The only evolution upgrade I can see is "Improved Damage". All this does is increase the damage die by one step. This wouldn't do anything to the amount of damage dealt by a quadruped. so you would do the increased damage die + 1.5 strength.


Draeke Raefel wrote:
Can you specify this "bite attack upgrade"? The only evolution upgrade I can see is "Improved Damage". All this does is increase the damage die by one step. This wouldn't do anything to the amount of damage dealt by a quadruped. so you would do the increased damage die + 1.5 strength.

Sorry; I'll try to make my question clearer. Basically, the rules (quote from p. 34 above) state that an eidolon that has a single natural attack applies strength modifier x 1 1/2 instead of just its strength modifier to damage. The bite evolution (quote from p. 36 above) states that when you spend a point on the bite evolution for a form that already has a bite (both the quadruped and serpentine forms) it: "allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite."

Now, on a form that has multiple attacks (and therefore applies strength modifier x 1 to all of it's attacks) the effect of taking the bite evolution when the eidolon already has a bite is obvious: it does str mod x 1 1/2 damage on the bite and str mod x 1 damage on its other natural attacks. However, in the case of the quadruped form, it is possible to have a single natural bite attack (giving str mod x 1 1/2 as per p. 34) and then spend an evolution point on the bite evolution (giving it str mod x 1 1/2 again on its bite attack as per p. 36). So, what happens when the bite attack gets "upgraded" to str mod x 1 1/2 twice? Is the amount of str applied to damage upgraded further, or do they not stack, rendering the bite evolution useless to a quadruped with a single bite attack?

Obviously, a DM could house-rule this either way according to his or her whims. I'm just wondering if there is an official rule somewhere that governs what happens in such circumstances.


konokoni wrote:

On page 34 of the Advanced Player's Guide Final Playtest PDF, it is stated that:

Quote:
All natural attacks are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted. Eidolon attacks add the eidolon’s Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier.

On page 36, in the evolutions section, the rules for the bite evolution are as follows:

Quote:
Bite (Ex) : An eidolon’s maw is full of razor-sharp teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.

So, what happens if you take the quadruped base form (which receives only a bite attack to start with) and then spend one evolution point on the bite attack "upgrade?" Are there any rules that govern situations where there are multiple "bonuses" to the amount of strength damage that applies to an attack? Do the bonuses stack somehow, further increasing the amount of damage the eidolon gets from its strength (strength bonus x2 perhaps)? Or do they not stack at all, rendering the bite evolution upgrade useless for the above-mentioned eidolon? My intuition suggests that allowing some form of stacking would be fair, as the only way to achieve this would be to only have one attack on the eidolon. However, I'd prefer an official answer to this question, assuming there is one to be found.

EDIT: Furthermore, assuming that stacking is allowed, what happens when the eidolon Power Attacks? Does that damage get upgraded as well?

By RAW, a creature with multiple natural attacks deal Str mod x1 on Primary attacks and Str mod x 0.5 on Secondary attacks. There are a few exceptions to this rule (Dragons, for example, despite having multiple natural attacks, have a Bite which deal Str x1.5). If a creature possesses only a single Natural attack, this deals Str x1.5.

There are a few exceptions to this, too - namely the Multiattack feat for Animal Companions and Eidolons which possess less than 3 Natural Attacks; in that case, the Multiattack feat provides them with an 'iterative' attack with one of their Natural Attacks (at -5). Since this is not an attack made with another different Natural Attack (like that of two different Claws, for example), the most logical conclusion is that both those 'iterative' Natural Attacks are made at the original Str multiplier (for a single Natural Attack, for example, both the iterative attacks would still be at Str x1.5).

Now, an Eidolon's Bite follows the normal rules for Primary Natural Attacks: if the Eidolon possesses multiple types of Natural Attacks, the Bite deals Str x1, if it possesses ONLY the Bite, it will deal Str x1.5. However, the Eidolon has another exception to these rules: if the Eidolon already possesses a Bite attack due to its base form* (so, Quadruped or Serpentine), taking the Bite Evolution will improve the Bite to ALWAYS deal Str x1.5. Basically, useless for an Eidolon with only a single bite, but really powerful for Eidolons with more attacks - it would simulate the powerful bites of Dragons, for example.

*This is actually a guessing, since an Evolution cannot be taken more than once unless specified, and the Bite evolution does not say that it can be takne more than once, it only says that if the Eidolon already possesses a Bite attack, taking this evolution gives an improvement. And the only way for an Eidolon to have a Bite attack is thanks to its Base Form*

As for your question on Power Attack, the description of the Power Attack feat itself says:
"You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon."
So, again, a Primary Natural Attack (Str x1) would deal +2 damage for each -1 to hit; a Secondary Natural Attack (Str x0.5) would deal +1 damage for each -1 to hit; and a Primary Natural Attack with a Str mod x1.5 would deal +3 damage for each -1 to hit.

EDIT: a Quadruped Eidolon should never take the Bite evolution without first taking another 'attack' evolution. It could (for example) take the Claws evolution, since (after the modifications to the APG Final Class Playtest) the Claw evolution can be applied to the Legs evolution ONCE.


The Wraith wrote:
Explanation.

So in your view, the bite evolution is, in fact, useless for an eidolon with only a bite attack, and because of that Power Attack functions as one would expect.

Actually, what I found particularly interesting about your response was:

The Wraith wrote:
*This is actually a guessing, since an Evolution cannot be taken more than once unless specified, and the Bite evolution does not say that it can be takne more than once, it only says that if the Eidolon already possesses a Bite attack, taking this evolution gives an improvement. And the only way for an Eidolon to have a Bite attack is thanks to its Base Form*

As you note, the rules clearly state that unless specified otherwise, each evolution can be taken only once. Both the serpentine and quadruped forms gain their bite attacks from "free evolutions." The bite evolution does not specify that it can be taken more than once. Therefore, RAW, it would seem that any form with a bite is prohibited from taking the bite evolution again to get that bump to strength x 1 1/2 damage, even though the bite evolution has a contingency for what happens when you take it when already in possession of a bite. Interesting.

(edited for clarity)


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
konokoni wrote:
The Wraith wrote:
Explanation.

So in your view, the bite evolution is, in fact, useless for an eidolon with only a bite attack, and because of that Power Attack functions as one would expect.

Actually, what I found particularly interesting about your response was:

The Wraith wrote:
*This is actually a guessing, since an Evolution cannot be taken more than once unless specified, and the Bite evolution does not say that it can be takne more than once, it only says that if the Eidolon already possesses a Bite attack, taking this evolution gives an improvement. And the only way for an Eidolon to have a Bite attack is thanks to its Base Form*

As you note, the rules clearly state that unless specified otherwise, each evolution can be taken only once. Both the serpentine and quadruped forms gain their bite attacks from "free evolutions." The bite evolution does not specify that it can be taken more than once. Therefore, RAW, it would seem that any form with a bite is prohibited from taking the bite evolution again to get that bump to strength x 1 1/2 damage, even though the bite evolution has a contingency for what happens when you take it when already in possession of a bite. Interesting.

(edited for clarity)

Following that logic (which seems fairly sound to me) then the Bite evolution contains an obvious error.

Since it is impossible for any Eidolon with a bite attack to take this evolution, the whole text about what happens when they do is invalid. There are two possible solutions:

1. Errata to remove that entire passage from the text.
2. Errata to add text that allows this evolution to be taken more than once (and probably further text that it should not be taken more than twice - stacking the 1.5 modifiers would get obnoxious very quickly).


DM_Blake wrote:

Following that logic (which seems fairly sound to me) then the Bite evolution contains an obvious error.

Since it is impossible for any Eidolon with a bite attack to take this evolution, the whole text about what happens when they do is invalid. There are two possible solutions:

1. Errata to remove that entire passage from the text.
2. Errata to add text that allows this evolution to be taken more than once (and probably further text that it should not be taken more than twice - stacking the 1.5 modifiers would get obnoxious very quickly).

Agreed, especially since the text of the bite evolution strongly indicates you should be able to take it more than once. While they're at it, clarifying what happens when you take it while only having a single bite attack (the original question of this thread) would be wonderful, even if it were to just officially state that it has no effect. :D

(edited for poor grammar)

Liberty's Edge

Putting together a summoner today, ran into an exception that would allow this to be useful: Any natural attacks of an eidolon wielding manufactured weapons become secondary, and thus deal only 1/2 str.

edit: although, obviously it does also need to be clarified that you can take bite more than once--like the hydra model *does*.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think the "Head" evolution lets you take one extra Bite attack evolution per extra head -- but since they are separate attacks, they don't get you to the 1.5 x Str mod damage bonus. So we still have the question of whether they left something out of the Bite evolution description or added an extraneous sentence. This is definitely FAQ-worthy.


Head (Ex): wrote:
An eidolon grows an additional head. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for the additional head, but the additional head does allow the eidolon to take other evolutions that add an additional attack to a head (such as a bite, gore, or breath weapon). This evolution can be selected more than once.

While they really should have added a line to the APG (is it still on v1?), the issue is that the Head evo was added to UM.

The Bite entry is in error because eidolons could only have a single head at the time of printing. The Head entry I quoted does seem to override the general restriction of taking Bite only once (and further, if you can only take it once, you can't upgrade each one? that makes vary little sense)

I'm not 100% on how this issue is adjudicated for PFS, but I imagine you can take Heads and Bite up to twice for each.

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