Health Reform puts American families and small business owners in control of their own health care.
# affordable
# new competitive health insurance market
# end discrimination
# greater accountability
# budget and economy on a more stable path
Ok. So when does it begin? Can I go see a doctor tomorrow?
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At least Obama isnt the star of his own Alternate History movie...yet.
I had not heard of 'The Death of a President' (2006). Poor George W. Bush.
Back on track: I dont realy think the USA is going to survive this. It is incapable of the fiscal restraint necessary to pay back the CHinese the 10 trillion it will owe (not including interest). Its economic choices lack an ability be self sustaining.
In the end Health Care will need to rebuild the health of Americans to the point of Economic benifit. Once the Economy can see increased productivity from health improvements in the Population...the USA will be better off at accepting this - Not before.
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Too bad the reality isn't matching your optimism. Small business owners are going to pay the penalty and let their workers buy their own insurance. Doctors are already dropping medicare patients as cuts to medicare put doctors in a position to not be paid for their work.
The GAO has already said the bill will cost tens of billions more than congress projected. Insurance companies aren't going to lower premiums, they don't have to. Premiums will, in reality, probably increase to cover the cost of all of the patients with pre-existing conditions they now have to accept.
There will be no "new competitive health insurance market" as the bill does not address the one factor that drives up prices: insurance companies still cannot compete from state to state, they have to have 50 separate entities to do business in all 50 states.
Oh, and none of the good stuff (as far as the tax payer is concerned) comes on line for a couple more years, so, to answer your question, no.
All very good points HD.
From my perspective the republicans are going to dismantle this whole health care debaucle by simply voteing to not fund it. Theres already plans to do so once thye gain the majority in the upcomeing elections.
All very good points HD.
From my perspective the republicans are going to dismantle this whole health care debaucle by simply voteing to not fund it. Theres already plans to do so once thye gain the majority in the upcomeing elections.
When is the vote scheduled??
The rumor says the President Obama is a drow gish, with two sharpness katanas (dmg 1d20)...
;)
The rumor says the President Obama is a drow gish, with two sharpness katanas (dmg 1d20)...
;)
THIS JUST IN: Gang of rabid gamers assaults White House. More at 8.
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Too bad the reality isn't matching your optimism. Small business owners are going to pay the penalty and let their workers buy their own insurance. Doctors are already dropping medicare patients as cuts to medicare put doctors in a position to not be paid for their work.
The GAO has already said the bill will cost tens of billions more than congress projected. Insurance companies aren't going to lower premiums, they don't have to. Premiums will, in reality, probably increase to cover the cost of all of the patients with pre-existing conditions they now have to accept.
There will be no "new competitive health insurance market" as the bill does not address the one factor that drives up prices: insurance companies still cannot compete from state to state, they have to have 50 separate entities to do business in all 50 states.
Oh, and none of the good stuff (as far as the tax payer is concerned) comes on line for a couple more years, so, to answer your question, no.
Premiums will, in theory go down. This is due to the fact that, while more members will be added that do have pre-existing conditions, many more without will be added as well. The more people you have in the pool, the less you pay. This is actually a very strong argument for allowing illegals to purchase health insurance--they are, on average younger and healthier than the people who are typically purchasing insurance. They also have a tendancy to leave before they reach the age where they would start heavily utilizing their benefits.
I think the "state to state" argument is mostly hyperbole. While living and working in Tennessee, I had Blue Cross Blue Shield of Alabam as my health insurance provider (I have never lived in, worked in, or visited Alabama-I also lived blocks away from the BCBS TN office, so it's not like they weren't in TN). So there are ways to get access to out of state providers already.
I doubt the huge increase in medical costs attributed to expanding coverage are going to materialize. In fact, over the long term, costs may go down. As a society, we already bear many of the costs of treating the uninsured, but by the time we refuse to turn them away they're often so sick that treating them is extremely (and needlessly) expensive.
As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Big jump in health care costs seen for 2011
From the article:
"The health care reform law passed by Congress and then signed by President Obama in March has just started to unfold and will have little impact on costs next year*"
So it appears that 2011 would have been a year of rising costs anyway, which many would say was one of the bigger problems in the first place.
* Emphasis mine.
Big jump in health care costs seen for 2011From the article:
"The health care reform law passed by Congress and then signed by President Obama in March has just started to unfold and will have little impact on costs next year*"
So it appears that 2011 would have been a year of rising costs anyway, which many would say was one of the bigger problems in the first place.
* Emphasis mine.
It appears to me that the affects of this bill will not happen until Obama is out of office. Well, the next guy will just change it back.
It appears to me that the affects of this bill will not happen until Obama is out of office. Well, the next guy will just change it back.
I think that depends on whether Obama gets a 2nd term.
As for repeal: That's largely in the hands of the legislative branch. The longer it takes, the less likely it becomes.
As for repeal: That's largely in the hands of the legislative branch. The longer it takes, the less likely it becomes.
why is that?
As for repeal: That's largely in the hands of the legislative branch. The longer it takes, the less likely it becomes.why is that?
People will forget about it and the repeal would be dropped.
People will forget about it and the repeal would be dropped.
??? Do you really think that? To me this issue is so big that it will never go away. Or is there something in the 'mechanism' of how it is to be done that is significantly influenced by waning attention??
So it appears that 2011 would have been a year of rising costs anyway, which many would say was one of the bigger problems in the first place.
While I really think America needed Health Care reform I think maybe the Democrats made an error in pushing this through. If I understand the article correctly then the rise in health care costs was ~9% last year, about 9% this year and is projected to be 9% next year. Looks like a trend and there is no reason to expect it to really go down. It was headed higher if anything.
Americans pay about $4,500 annually per capita on health care. Someone with some talent in math can work this out but considering that the costs are compounded annually this means that the cost doubles in, I think 6 or 7 years. There comes a point where the American system simply can't handle this cost, that might be at $9,000 per capita or it might be at $18,000 per capita but their is a break point.
As we approach the break point there will come a time when the American Middle Class, as a body are being adversely effected and the demand for Health Care Reform solidly passes 50% - at that moment even Republicans, on average will be demanding Health Care Reform (because their constituents will be demanding it and they'd like to get elected).
I think the Democrats should have floated the idea and, when it became clear that no Republican support was going to be forth coming and that the public was not squarely in their corner they should have walked away saying they'll float the idea again when a greater percentage of the population is on board.
I mean I kind of respect the fact that they stuck to their guns and went forward with a reform package in the teeth of significant opposition, but it was probably not good politics, and it seemed like they eventually gave away to many concessions to various elements of the industry.
All very good points HD.
From my perspective the republicans are going to dismantle this whole health care debaucle by simply voteing to not fund it. Theres already plans to do so once thye gain the majority in the upcomeing elections.
That sounds like it may be a political hot potato. What happens to all the voters that apply for the programs, are accepted but then informed that there will not actually be any health care help for them as the government is not able to pay?
It strikes me that millions of voters could be angered by having this sort of bait put in front of their face and the Democrats will certainly use every opportunity they have to remind such voters that they are trying but its those evil heartless Republicans that are withholding the funding.
It seems to me that such a plan could easily be a way of 'creating Democrats' out of voters that may not have strongly identified with either party initially.
The Republicans are already pretty good at mobilizing their core constituents and they can use the very existence of the issue to mobilize support (promise some kind of conservative overhaul). So there is no need to cut funding, they don't appear to gain any votes from it as it just assuages their core constituency to do so, and by not cutting the funding they can avoid angering many of the critical 20% of the population that swings back and forth between the parties at election time.
I kind of suspect that they [The Republican Party] might get as much mileage out of the issue as they possibly can and then eventually just move on. I mean they might choose to grapple health care themselves but I think that its even more dangerous to them then the Democrats. The democrats have a core constituency that knows what they want Health Care to look like (It looks like socialism).
I don't think the same is true about the various wings of the Republicans. Its extremely difficult to reconcile your down to earth Christian Soccer Mom and you ideologically fervent Libertarians on the issue as they actually are fairly far apart on what they want Health Care to look like. The Libertarian wants the free market to decide without government interference while the Christian Soccer Mom wants reassurance that her husbands insurance will make her children well if they get sick. It may serve the Republicans best to leave this as it stands and simply trot out 'I told you so' every time there is any kind of failure with the Democrats Health Care Reform. If they are lucky it could be the gift that keeps on giving for years to come - while actually trying to reform it makes them a target and potentially splits their core constituency.
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Also be wary of President Obama, the healthcare ploy is only a cover. He is being controlled by THEM. This healthcare plan is only in place to insure that all americans are getting THE SHOT. You get implanted with there mark which makes you more susceptible to suggestion. Soon they will implement the final stage which will take the form of a shot and pills which will make you a complete willing mindslave, totally under there control and then the human harvest will begin. TRUST NO ONE!!!! STAY OFF THE GRID!!!
People will forget about it and the repeal would be dropped.??? Do you really think that? To me this issue is so big that it will never go away. Or is there something in the 'mechanism' of how it is to be done that is significantly influenced by waning attention??
Historically once an entitlement is passed into law it becomes almost untouchable politically. It will require a huge amount of political will and intensity to eliminate Obama care. If it drops off the political radar that intensity and will just won't be there.
Also be wary of President Obama, the healthcare ploy is only a cover. He is being controlled by THEM. This healthcare plan is only in place to insure that all americans are get THE SHOT. You get implanted with there mark which makes you more susceptible to suggestion. Soon they will implement the final stage which will take the form of a shot and pills which will make you a complete willing mindslave, totally under there control and then the human harvest will begin. TRUST NO ONE!!!! STAY OFF THE GRID!!!
I think we have more to fear from aliens attacking earth. Did you not hear what the eminent physicist Stephan Hawkings said about searching for aliens??
He knows because ###############. ############# ##########################. ############333.
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[sarcasm]Yeah, I can't WAIT till I have to go to my doctor every time I want to buy cough syrup or advil for my sick child. Whoohoo!!!
[/sarcasm]
Jan 1, 2011
Products like advil, claritin, robitussin, will no longer be available as OTC for those that have pre-tax health funds and will require a prescription. It is unclear if this will include non-health funds.
[sarcasm]
I received the letter from my health care provider just yesterday sharing with me this GREAT news [/sarcasm]
Health Reform puts American families and small business owners in control of their own health care.# affordable
# new competitive health insurance market
# end discrimination
# greater accountability
# budget and economy on a more stable pathOk. So when does it begin? Can I go see a doctor tomorrow?
[sarcasm]Yeah, I can't WAIT till I have to go to my doctor every time I want to buy cough syrup or advil for my sick child. Whoohoo!!!
[/sarcasm]
Jan 1, 2011Products like advil, claritin, robitussin, will no longer be available as OTC for those that have pre-tax health funds and will require a prescription. It is unclear if this will include non-health funds.
[sarcasm]
I received the letter from my health care provider just yesterday sharing with me this GREAT news [/sarcasm]
Health Reform puts American families and small business owners in control of their own health care.# affordable
# new competitive health insurance market
# end discrimination
# greater accountability
# budget and economy on a more stable pathOk. So when does it begin? Can I go see a doctor tomorrow?
I don't know about this. I'm not saying that you didn't get your letter in the mail or ANYTHING like that, but this *may* be your insurance company overreacting. I got something similar a few years ago that actually forced me(and a lot of my coworkers) to pay attention to our health plan for all of 15 minutes. About a week and a half later, we got a notice with a different name on it(read; someone got canned) stating that the last letter should be disregarded.
What's really funny about this, is that the "Obama-care" plan has been a republican idea since Nixon; was a republican alternative to the Clinton era health care plan; was enacted by Mitt Romney (Republican-Mass.) during his time as Governor. So with that said, let me get this straight: It's been a republican idea for almost 40 years, someone from the OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE says it has merits, suddenly you're going to run away from your own plan--the plan your party has been advocating for years and years--like rats from a sinking ship? WTF?
Just because 2 Republican losers support a truly stupid plan does not make it THE Republican plan.
Just like Bush having a stupid idea does not automatically make that idea THE Republican position.
What's really funny about this, is that the "Obama-care" plan has been a republican idea since Nixon; was a republican alternative to the Clinton era health care plan; was enacted by Mitt Romney (Republican-Mass.) during his time as Governor. So with that said, let me get this straight: It's been a republican idea for almost 40 years, someone from the OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE says it has merits, suddenly you're going to run away from your own plan--the plan your party has been advocating for years and years--like rats from a sinking ship? WTF?Just because 2 Republican losers support a truly stupid plan does not make it THE Republican plan.
Just like Bush having a stupid idea does not automatically make that idea THE Republican position.
A-freaking-men.
That said, the increasing support for this sort of thing among Repubs like Romney and Bush is one of the main reasons I registered Independent.
I'm telling you don't trust any of THEM. They are preparing for a human culling with swine flu vaccines. If you don't listen to me, you will all die!!!!!!!!!
He's obviously just another conspiracy theorist. Carry on, nothing to see here, yeeesssss.
It sorta becomes the Republican Plan when the MAJORITY of the party decide it's a better option to what the Democrats were proposing.
Just because 2 Republican losers support a truly stupid plan does not make it THE Republican plan.Just like Bush having a stupid idea does not automatically make that idea THE Republican position.
Citation?
I'm sorry, what were the alternatives on the table again?
Everything was just fine wasn't it?
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I'm sorry, what were the alternatives on the table again?
Everything was just fine wasn't it?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...HAHAHA!
I hope you're joking...because if you aren't and you think that insurance companies being allowed to cancel your coverage and deny an expensive, but lifesaving claim due to "paperwork errors," you forgetting to tell them that you had a zit once when you were 12, or canceling for just about anything else is fine, then you are one cold mofo.
The problem is, due to things like EMTALA and the patients' bill of rights, hospitals are REQUIRED to treat anybody who comes into their emergency room...regardless of whether or not they are having an emergency or whether or not they can pay. Add to this that doctors are running more tests than are medically necessary, prescribing antibiotics for pretty much anything, etc. just out of fear of getting sued and you're going to see higher medical costs. These costs come from hospitals raising the rates on paying customers to cover the losses they accrue on customers that can't pay, and doctors ordering unnecessary tests and raising their rates due to raised malpractice insurance rates.
I believe that there should be a public option, in addition to non-monopolistic health insurance companies and tort reform. Any of these three would bring costs down a bit. Do them all and costs will plummit (plumet? plumit? none of these look right...guess that's what you get when you try and use a word that you don't often use).
I'm sorry, what were the alternatives on the table again?
Everything was just fine wasn't it?
Of course not, but let's not confuse the need to do something with the need to do anything.
When there is a fire you should do something useful; you should probably not grab the red can and hope for the best.
The choice was never Obama care or nothing ever. That is an utterly false dichotomy. I can recognize that the current system is horribly broken and still hate Obama care without the slightest sense of cognitive dissonance.
EDIT: I'm not trying to build a straw man. You never said it was the only possibility, but I inferred something to that effect.
I'm sorry, what were the alternatives on the table again?
Everything was just fine wasn't it?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...HAHAHA!
I hope you're joking...because if you aren't and you think that insurance companies being allowed to cancel your coverage and deny an expensive, but lifesaving claim due to "paperwork errors," you forgetting to tell them that you had a zit once when you were 12, or canceling for just about anything else is fine, then you are one cold mofo.
The problem is, due to things like EMTALA and the patients' bill of rights, hospitals are REQUIRED to treat anybody who comes into their emergency room...regardless of whether or not they are having an emergency or whether or not they can pay. Add to this that doctors are running more tests than are medically necessary, prescribing antibiotics for pretty much anything, etc. just out of fear of getting sued and you're going to see higher medical costs. These costs come from hospitals raising the rates on paying customers to cover the losses they accrue on customers that can't pay, and doctors ordering unnecessary tests and raising their rates due to raised malpractice insurance rates.
I believe that there should be a public option, in addition to non-monopolistic health insurance companies and tort reform. Any of these three would bring costs down a bit. Do them all and costs will plummit (plumet? plumit? none of these look right...guess that's what you get when you try and use a word that you don't often use).
I think that was sarcasm, and AIiG is more likely to agree with you than me. :)
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I think that was sarcasm, and AIiG is more likely to agree with you than me. :)
I think my sarcasm sensor is on the fritz...half the time it works, half the time it doesn't.
2BH, I don't see why they just didn't push reform as amendments to HIPPA rather than going through the hubbub of passing a whole new bill...HIPPA already deals with insurance, most of the changes were to insurance...I'm not seeing the problem there
I think that was sarcasm, and AIiG is more likely to agree with you than me. :)I think my sarcasm sensor is on the fritz...half the time it works, half the time it doesn't.
2BH, I don't see why they just didn't push reform as amendments to HIPPA rather than going through the hubbub of passing a whole new bill...HIPPA already deals with insurance, most of the changes were to insurance...I'm not seeing the problem there
Because they wanted a much more drastic restructuring that involves the creation of several large and very powerful new federal bureaucracies with massive new regulatory authority. The 2600ish pages of law is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Because they wanted a much more drastic restructuring that involves the creation of several large and very powerful new federal bureaucracies with massive new regulatory authority. The 2600ish pages of law is just the tip of the iceberg.I think that was sarcasm, and AIiG is more likely to agree with you than me. :)I think my sarcasm sensor is on the fritz...half the time it works, half the time it doesn't.
2BH, I don't see why they just didn't push reform as amendments to HIPPA rather than going through the hubbub of passing a whole new bill...HIPPA already deals with insurance, most of the changes were to insurance...I'm not seeing the problem there
If there's any industry that needs regulation, it's the health insurance industry. It's not like insurance companies are just hanging onto your money, they gambling with your health/life. I know you're a minarchist and all, but can you really justify allowing health insurance companies to drop their customers who need expensive but life-saving procedures as a way for the company to save money under the guise of "the government needs to stay out of industry"?
If there's any industry that needs regulation, it's the health insurance industry. It's not like insurance companies are just hanging onto your money, they gambling with your health/life. I know you're a minarchist and all, but can you really justify allowing health insurance companies to drop their customers who need expensive but life-saving procedures as a way for the company to save money under the guise of "the government needs to stay out of industry"?Because they wanted a much more drastic restructuring that involves the creation of several large and very powerful new federal bureaucracies with massive new regulatory authority. The 2600ish pages of law is just the tip of the iceberg.I think that was sarcasm, and AIiG is more likely to agree with you than me. :)I think my sarcasm sensor is on the fritz...half the time it works, half the time it doesn't.
2BH, I don't see why they just didn't push reform as amendments to HIPPA rather than going through the hubbub of passing a whole new bill...HIPPA already deals with insurance, most of the changes were to insurance...I'm not seeing the problem there
I posted a lengthy well reasoned reply but the boards ate it, so I'll point you this way.
Healthcare and my mental block when it comes to the right wing take