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Let me know what you think:
1. 5' step - I've nerfed this ability a little. Under my house rule, if your 5' step begins and ends in the same creatures threatened area (i.e. only moves you "through" its threatened area), it will still provoke an attack of opportunity. I don't think this ability was ever intended to allow complete freedom of movement, no matter how close you are to your enemy. You can still take advantage of the free action to maneuver, for instance, into a flanking position, but it will still provoke if you're moving "through."
2. Lightning spells - water surface is known to break line of effect for fire-based spells, but I have my own interpretation for electricity-based spells. If the spell has a set length and width, once it hits the surface of the water, the length is halved, but the width is doubled, representing the diffusing effect of water on electrical current.
3. Reflex saves on area-effect spells - in order to gain the benefits of a reflex save for half damage on area-effect spells (or a rogue's evasion ability), you must be close enough to the edge of the effect's area to move out with a single movement, and if you succeed on the save, you must move your character to the nearest square outside the effect. This house rule doesn't apply if you are using some other means to avoid the spell effects, such as hiding under or behind a tower shield.
So, thoughts?
Let me know what you think:
1. 5' step - I've nerfed this ability a little. Under my house rule, if your 5' step begins and ends in the same creatures threatened area (i.e. only moves you "through" its threatened area), it will still provoke an attack of opportunity. I don't think this ability was ever intended to allow complete freedom of movement, no matter how close you are to your enemy. You can still take advantage of the free action to maneuver, for instance, into a flanking position, but it will still provoke if you're moving "through."
2. Lightning spells - water surface is known to break line of effect for fire-based spells, but I have my own interpretation for electricity-based spells. If the spell has a set length and width, once it hits the surface of the water, the length is halved, but the width is doubled, representing the diffusing effect of water on electrical current.
3. Reflex saves on area-effect spells - in order to gain the benefits of a reflex save for half damage on area-effect spells (or a rogue's evasion ability), you must be close enough to the edge of the effect's area to move out with a single movement, and if you succeed on the save, you must move your character to the nearest square outside the effect. This house rule doesn't apply if you are using some other means to avoid the spell effects, such as hiding under or behind a tower shield.
So, thoughts?
The 5' step rule doesn't work. It gives a Huge benefit to larger creatures and they already have a lot of benefits cause of reach. It also makes Combat reflexes and stand still the most powerful feats in the game for those with reach and some good dex. It may not seem as much, but when you put your players fighting a Gargantuan creature with stand still, you will see them all die horribly.
The other stuff is cool, although it does penalize classes with high reflexes and abilities that avoid area damage, but I don't have as much trouble with it. But you should give those with evasion and imp. evasion something better, like only half with imp. evasion if u don't have room to maneuver or something of the like, to make it usefull. Bear in mind that it's pretty ease to make an area attack in a way that people cannot escape with your rule.
Nope, not a fan of your 5' interpretation, but it's your game. If you feel it's necessary then go for it.
Lightning spells used to have a similar ruling in 2nd edition. Again, if you feel this is necessary then I won't tell you your wrong. I like the idea, but have to question if it's really needed.
I agree with you on the Reflex saves. I've always felt that the Reflex save should be moving out out of the way. It really is the most nerfed save as you can expect to always do half or no damage with any Reflex based effects at higher level. Certainly an idea to consider for my own games. Thank you.
Let me know what you think:
1. 5' step - I've nerfed this ability a little. Under my house rule, if your 5' step begins and ends in the same creatures threatened area (i.e. only moves you "through" its threatened area), it will still provoke an attack of opportunity. I don't think this ability was ever intended to allow complete freedom of movement, no matter how close you are to your enemy. You can still take advantage of the free action to maneuver, for instance, into a flanking position, but it will still provoke if you're moving "through."
Funny, by biggest beef with the 5ft step is the opposite: using it to safely disengage (usually to cast spell or use ranged weapon).
2. Lightning spells - water surface is known to break line of effect for fire-based spells, but I have my own interpretation for electricity-based spells. If the spell has a set length and width, once it hits the surface of the water, the length is halved, but the width is doubled, representing the diffusing effect of water on electrical current.
Interesting. A large body of water is effectively a huge ground however: damage could scale down as one moves away from the original line of effect.
3. Reflex saves on area-effect spells - in order to gain the benefits of a reflex save for half damage on area-effect spells (or a rogue's evasion ability), you must be close enough to the edge of the effect's area to move out with a single movement, and if you succeed on the save, you must move your character to the nearest square outside the effect. This house rule doesn't apply if you are using some other means to avoid the spell effects, such as hiding under or behind a tower shield.
I implemented something similar in my last game, but only about the evasion part. Actually, it still an active houserule in our new game; only it hasn't come into effect yet. Expect interesting (and sometimes annoying) consequences. It DOES make evocation more powerful and evasion less powerful, but considering that evocation is rather weak and evasion rather good, it remains acceptable. Forcing this for every Reflex save can drag your round forever 'though.
You will also want to address the issue of AoO before you implement this rule. Consistency asks you to allow AoO on that type of movement as well, and a simple fireball can now include several more movement of figurines, potential AoOs and the obligatory argument that the 'pit-of-doom' next to the rogue isn't really the closest exit to the Area of Effect etc... In other words, it will make your round slower. That's why I suggest implementing this for evasion only.
'findel
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Yeah, the 5' step house rule is the one I've been having the most second thoughts about. The one about lightning and water, granted, not really necessary, but I thought it was kind of cool and interesting to bring an extra element of realism to the game (of course, realism is usually checked at the door in D&D, so there is that). It's a good point that Laurefindel raises about the reflex save making the round unnecessarily wrong, so I may implement (her?) idea about applying that only to the evasion and improved evasion abilities.
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Yeah, the 5' step house rule is the one I've been having the most second thoughts about. The one about lightning and water, granted, not really necessary, but I thought it was kind of cool and interesting to bring an extra element of realism to the game (of course, realism is usually checked at the door in D&D, so there is that). It's a good point that Laurefindel raises about the reflex save making the round unnecessarily wrong, so I may implement (her?) idea about applying that only to the evasion and improved evasion abilities.
Sorry, typo - that should read "unnecessarily long."
You could modify the 5 foot step rule to consider difficult terrain like water, ice, stairs, etc. and consider it a double move that provokes a AOO in those environments. You can also consider moving backwards as difficult terrain, as you don't know where you are going.
That way you make it consistent for everyone based on terrain, and add another dimension to your game.
If I remember correctly, in 2nd ed, when lightning bolt hit water, it turned into a sphere effect. IE it becomes a lightning ball similar in size and shape to a fireball.
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You could modify the 5 foot step rule to consider difficult terrain like water, ice, stairs, etc. and consider it a double move that provokes a AOO in those environments. You can also consider moving backwards as difficult terrain, as you don't know where you are going.
That way you make it consistent for everyone based on terrain, and add another dimension to your game.
That's already the case. You cannot 5' step into DT.
Robert
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If I remember correctly, in 2nd ed, when lightning bolt hit water, it turned into a sphere effect. IE it becomes a lightning ball similar in size and shape to a fireball.
You are correct - it acted like a fireball in size.
I do like his idea of lightning in water. It's an unnecessary complication, but it has a cool factor.
Robert
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Let me know what you think:
1. 5' step - I've nerfed this ability a little.
As others have indicated - this is a bad idea IMO as well. Once again, this benefits the archers and casters who can 5' step back and unload, but puts additional burdens on melee guys who cannot make use of his iterative attacks unless he only moves 5' (or less); punishing him for doing so and finding a tactical advantage with that restriction to allow his attacks further hamstrings him - unfairly and unnecessarily.
2. Lightning spells
As i mentioned in a previous post - this definitely has cool real world physics application to it - it's an unnecessary complication of the rule, but it won't unbalance anything and adds flavor.
3. Reflex saves on area-effect spells
While this makes sense, I dont' know if it's the right thing to do. One it complicates the round, Two, it complicates movement (attacks of opportunity) Three, how will it be abused? "I'm in this area surrounded by bad guys, I need to get out of this quick - I have a high REF save, wizard buddy drop a fireball on me so I can navigate out of here quickly" Four, in dungeon and other tighter places, there's never room to avoid the AoE; especially when the AoE is big - cone of cold or Widen Spell Feat.
The other side of the coin is that it does provide some measure of help for Evoc spells which are as everyone indicates significantly weaker than many othe spell choices.
The reason for this dates back to earlier editions; fireball for instance use to fill and area - not just a ball - so in tight spaces it would fill a volume - down cooridors, around corners etc until it filled a volume; so if the ceiling was low, it could really spread out. There was no evasion. Energy resistance was a lot more rare. People stopped rolling hit points at 9th level and no more CON modifiers were applied after 9th level, not to mention, +2 was the max con non fighters could have to their hit points. Compile that to Pathfinders increase of hit die type for arcane casters and rogues, equates to significantly more hit points for targets, evasion for rogues, and lots of availability for resistance to energy makes the spells subpar. A 10d Fireball in 2nd edition was VERY nasty and everyone at the table swallowed loudly when a wizard pulled out that sulphur. Now a 10d Fireball vs 12th level encounter is paltry.
An easier fix IMO would be making evoc spell damage 1d6+1 per level. And/Or give a penalty to Reflex saving throws based on if there is room to navigate; not forcing movement though.
Another house rule to make evoc spells valuable again (one that I've experimented with in a number of different ways) was making evoc energy damage cause a Condition with a failed save. Spells that leave lasting conditions are far more attractive. The condition lasts for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell. Shaken, Sickened, Fatigued are all good examples of what can be left in effect after getting frozen, burnt, electicuted, or fried by acid etc. Have one condition for each energy type. HINT: Make acid the weakest of all the conditions; since it's the first choice people use Energy Substitution for (in games that have that feat as an option).
Robert
You could modify the 5 foot step rule to consider difficult terrain like water, ice, stairs, etc. and consider it a double move that provokes a AOO in those environments. You can also consider moving backwards as difficult terrain, as you don't know where you are going.
That way you make it consistent for everyone based on terrain, and add another dimension to your game.
That's already the case. You cannot 5' step into DT.
Robert
Thanks, I should know better to check those things before replying. To many game systems played and a fading memory.
Let me know what you think:
1. 5' step - I've nerfed this ability a little. Under my house rule, if your 5' step begins and ends in the same creatures threatened area (i.e. only moves you "through" its threatened area), it will still provoke an attack of opportunity. I don't think this ability was ever intended to allow complete freedom of movement, no matter how close you are to your enemy. You can still take advantage of the free action to maneuver, for instance, into a flanking position, but it will still provoke if you're moving "through."
Oddly, I think close-combat movement is exactly what it was intended to allow. Fencers circling one another, an armored fighter maneuvering around, turning his opponent to let the rogue get behind and sneak attack (I know, no facing in 3.x but giving the rogue a shorter path to a flanking position is the idea). That's what I saw the 5' step as being for. I wouldn't implement this house rule if I were you.
2. Lightning spells
Cool, but go with the sphere idea.
3. Reflex saves on area-effect spells - in order to gain the benefits of a reflex save for half damage on area-effect spells (or a rogue's evasion ability), you must be close enough to the edge of the effect's area to move out with a single movement, and if you succeed on the save, you must move your character to the nearest square outside the effect. This house rule doesn't apply if you are using some other means to avoid the spell effects, such as hiding under or behind a tower shield.
I don't like it. For the reasons mentioned above, but also, there's more to a reflex save than just getting out of the area. And if I make my save and get out of the area, how did I take half damage? I was out of the area. Let's take a lightning bolt as an example. It's instantaneous. If I get hit with it at all, I didn't only take damage until I moved out of the way. Think of a successful reflex save as being able to protect yourself minimally from an effect you COULDN'T get out of the way of. In a fireball, you were able to twist around and put your back to the center of the blast, whereas the guy who failed his save was looking right at it and got it full in the face. Also, you're giving your PCs a free move action every time someone casts a spell a them. That WILL be abused. "I'm in the center, why do I have to go to the side? I'll go straight up to the mage so I'm a 5' step away on my turn."
I don't like it. For the reasons mentioned above, but also, there's more to a reflex save than just getting out of the area.
I agree with that!
And if I make my save and get out of the area, how did I take half damage? I was out of the area.
I think the idea was that you managed to avoid 1/2 damage by getting out of there, taking 1/2 on the way out. Other than being relatively impractical, the concept isn't that ridiculous IMO.
You bring a good point by saying that there are ways to avoid damage other than moving out of the AoO, but I think there's more to a Reflex save than being able to protect yourself minimally from an effect you couldn't get out of the way of.
As for energy types, we need to see them in their abstract form as well. Lightning bolt doesn't act like real-life electricity. An arc happens between two objects, not up to a certain distance in front of its source. An arc can split but usually doesn't jump from one object to another etc. Its only an instantaneous effect to the same level as the fireball is an instantaneous effect.
I think the idea was that you managed to avoid 1/2 damage by getting out of there, taking 1/2 on the way out. Other than being relatively impractical, the concept isn't that ridiculous IMO.
You bring a good point by saying that there are ways to avoid damage other than moving out of the AoO, but I think there's more to a Reflex save than being able to protect yourself minimally from an effect you couldn't get out of the way of.
As for energy types, we need to see them in their abstract form as well. Lightning bolt doesn't act like real-life electricity. An arc happens between two objects, not up to a certain distance in front of its source. An arc can split but usually doesn't jump from one object to another etc. Its only an instantaneous effect to the same level as the fireball is an instantaneous effect.
That's exactly the problem i have with it. There is no on the way out with a fireball. It's instantaneous. Flash, it's there, and it's gone. You don't have time to take so much as a 5' step, let alone your full movement. The reflex save represents whether you saw it coming in time to take whatever protective measures you're capable of, such as the ones I mentioned above. Half damage is just an abstraction, since, obviously, not everyone would be capable of taking the same measures to reduce the damage by the exact same amount. But it's easy enough to work with that no one's really had to change it through five editions of the game.
A fireball does 30 points of damage. You made your save took 15 because you moved out of the effect before it did the full 30. If the half-damage save is because you take half of the spell's full damage on the way out, you were only in the effect half as long as it took to take full damage. That means that someone who didn't make his save was in the area of effect twice as long as the people who moved. So not only didn't he make his save, he stood in place twice as long as it takes you to make a full move. In other words, as long as it takes to do a double move. That's a full round's worth of time, or six seconds, standing in a continuous fireball effect. That makes no sense to me.
The Reflex save change also makes me scratch my head. If you must move to the nearest square outside the area and it's occupied by a monster, what happens?
Also, this turns into free movement when it isn't your turn. The example above with having the wizard fireball you springs to mind. I'm okay with the Step Up feat, it uses your immediate action, but this one could get downright silly. You could literally blast someone across a battlefield by shooting him repeatedly with fireballs while he's protected with a resist energy spell, all because he has to move every time. All it takes is a few scrolls or wands of fireball and some UMD checks.
That's exactly the problem i have with it. There is no on the way out with a fireball. It's instantaneous. Flash, it's there, and it's gone. You don't have time to take so much as a 5' step, let alone your full movement.
Well, the effect is obviously slow enough to allow some kind of reaction, otherwise there wouldn't be any save at all. Whether you take full damage or not seems to be influenced on your ability to react to the oncoming spell, hence the reflex save. Not resist fire save, not withstand pain save: reflex save.
Some characters develop the ability even further (the evasion class feature) where no damage is taken whatsoever on a successful save. In the case of a fireball, one could question how the rogue got unscathed while saying in the Area of Effect. While not mechanically supported (the rogue doesn't move), it is not that unrealistic to imagine that the rogue somehow got out of harms way. Just like action heroes "ride" the exploding building/car/space ship in every hollywood production. It may not be very D&D-tactical, but it's cinematic!
Nightwish's suggestion started on this assumption and developed the case further. As I said, I personally think this hourserule is unpractical at best and raises just as many question as it provides solutions, as Lathiira just pointed out. That's not even considering the cheesy situation where a mage would "push" his rogue ally with a little fireball to increase his movement during a round! But in essence, the concept isn't that far fetched.
as always, YMMV...
Hmm ... the others are ok (1st post), but messin' w/the 5' move means the ONLY way to fight effectively is to stand still ... and swing.
Now, tell me, does this even sound *remotely* entertaining?
Does it sound reasonable?
Does it match up with anything you are familiar with in real life?
For my part, circling, and *small* movements is just part of combat. IF you decide to root yourself to the ground where you're planted, you're going to get out-maneuverd - and clobbered (at the least) really good.
:shrugs:
YMMV, though ...
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My issue with reflex save is that people assume you are dodging completely out of the area, etc... I know the rules imply this but the reflex save could also reflect some of the following.
1) Crouching behind your shield to cover your body from some of the blast.
2) Ducking and covering to minimize body area exposed to the effect.
3) Twisting and turning to avoid the larger archs of energy and only being struck by smaller burst or grazed.
4) Putting less vital body parts infront of more vital body parts. Folding your arms over your face. Sure your forarms may be burned but far better than taking a fireblast directly to the face.
5) Holding your breath quickly enough to avoid inhaling flames and burning the tender tissue inside the lungs.
6) Momentarily dropping prone to and allowing the blast/effect to go over the body. This is just a variant of minimizing the amount of body surface exposed to the effect.
7) Squating down behind a chair or leaning behind a tree trunk momentarily to gain some cover from the blast.
I dont think a reflex save is supposed to always reflect leaping completely out of the area of effect.
Absolutely! I was going to mention the same thing.
Pulling cloak protectively over face is another.
Furthermore, saving throws also contain a smidgeon of luck (hence the dice rolling). Luck could be anything - for instance, you happen to be standing in a cave and a low hanging stalagtite happens to deflect much of the energy, or a gust of wind blew some of it away from you, or a tree branch happens to be hanging nearby and took the brunt of it. etc.
In short, the luck factor is all the intangibles that play a role in so many things that happen, that could potentially be any number of "thank god this or this happened...."
Robert
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I appreciate everyone's input. I've done away with the nerfing of the 5' step and the reflex save on area spells, due to many of the complications that people have mentioned here as well as complications we've found in-game. I also do like the sphere idea with lightning bolts. I think I'll start doing that, it does seem a lot simpler than having to do all the extra math I had in mind.
I have long played with some similar ideas about the Reflex save.
Reflex saves presume some form of defensive maneuvering in the attempt to avoid taking damage. When a character must make a Reflex saving throw, he has three options, and he must choose one of these ways to resolve it before rolling the save. He may choose to forego all these options, but doing so disallows him the Reflex saving throw.
1. He may move outside the area of effect in a straight line to the nearest available space, moving a maximum of 1/4 his base speed.
2. He may gain cover by employing his shield or by ducking behind an object at least 1/2 his height that is no more than 10 feet away.
3. He may fall prone in his current space.
Regardless of the option chosen, any movement taken is considered an immediate action and is part of the saving throw. It does not count against movement for that round and it does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
This has been a houserule of mine for several years, and it has worked quite well. It seems to address some of the concerns posted here, too.
Just my 2 coppers...