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I don't see the interest of enhancement bonuses to attack (which won't stack) for a shield wielded by a Shield Master. Do you?
You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.
Does this feat allow a +5 shield to bypass material- and alignment-related DR as a magic weapon does?
Does this feat allow a character to completely ignore the TWF penalty of wielding a heavy shield (-4 since the heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon)?
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
Does this potentially allow for a shield with shield properties totalling +10 and weapon properties totalling +10 too (for a hefty price, of course)?
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
Since adding special properties (like Flaming, Wounding, Ghost Touch, etc.) to a weapon requires a +1 bonus, does the bolded part above allow for adding weapon special properties to the shield?
Does this potentially allow for +10 enchantments on top of this +1?If I want to make it a +4 (weapon enhancement) shield, does it cost me +4 or +3?
My thought is: yes on all of those.
My other thought is: sword & board style is F'k'n BROKEN beyond all belief!!!!
*Shield boon (+2 to AC base, and a "shield" type of AC bonus)
*Cheap Enchantment (+5 for CHEAP compared to ... EVERYTHING ELSE!!!)
*Free slam/bull rush on attacks (at least 1) w/an existing attack {hello barbarian rage-power much?}
*2-wpn combat use
* NO 2-wpn penalties (seriously!?!?!? It's NOT even a weapon!!!)
*Keep shield AC boon WHILE using it and swinging it around LIKE A WEAPON (ie: pointedly directing focus AWAY from defense - it's purpose - and into offense)
*It gets to add shield enhancement bonus (that is a FRACTION of the cost of a weapon) to both "to hit" and "damage" rolls!!! {OMG!!! Never noticed that until now}
Yeah .... that's broken, BS, and in need of being dialed back ... by a LOT!!!
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On the DR bypass, I would say yes.
On the Attack penalties, it only allows you to ignore penalties with the shield attack. Any penalties incurred from your primary weapon would still apply to attack rolls with that weapon.
On doubling the magical enhancements, I would say only one or the other could be used. Yes, you can add +10 to the shield properties and +10 to it for weapon properties, but you could not include both effects during attacks.
Regarding the Bashing shield special property, I would say that any enhancement rules would still need to be applied. The wording only says that it "acts" as +1 "when used to bash." It says nothing about being considered +1 for enhancement purposes.
Does this feat allow a +5 shield to bypass material- and alignment-related DR as a magic weapon does?
Sure. . .
Does this feat allow a character to completely ignore the TWF penalty of wielding a heavy shield (-4 since the heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon)?
Sort of. It lets you ignore the penalty when making attacks with the shield itself. Attack rolls with the other weapon are still affected by the TWF penalties.
Since a shield can only be used to make off-hand attacks ("You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."), you can't wield a light weapon in your other hand and get just -2/-2 penalties -- it would be -4/-4, so Shield Master would let you make attacks at -4/+0, -4 for the main hand attack, no penalties for the off-hand attack.
Does this potentially allow for a shield with shield properties totalling +10 and weapon properties totalling +10 too (for a hefty price, of course)?
You cannot add weapon special abilities to a shield if it does not have a +1 weapon enhancement bonus. The Shield Master feat lets you add the armor enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus. *However*, there's no indication that this was intended for magic item creation. If you want to add weapon special abilities to a shield (even with someone using the Shield Master feat), you'll need to add a +1 weapon enhancement bonus and then add the weapon special abilities.
Even then, the new errata on adding additional special abilities limits you to +10:
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.
Thus, if you had a shield with weapon special properties equaling +10, you'd get no enhancement bonus benefit from the Shield Master feat (you'd still ignore TWF penalties with the shield).
Since adding special properties (like Flaming, Wounding, Ghost Touch, etc.) to a weapon requires a +1 bonus, does the bolded part above allow for adding weapon special properties to the shield?
No. The bold section clearly says you get the +1 bonus when the shield is used as part of a shield bash. If you're crafting additional properties to the shield, you're not using it to shield bash.
Its been repeatedly stated, though I long for an official FAQ, that Shield Master adds the shield AC bonus as a weapon enhancement bonus. That means bashing with a Light Shield gets you a +1 and a heavy shield +2. Because it is an enhancement bonus it will not stack with an an existing weapon enhancement bonus, you only get the better.
Check out the new errata. It's incorporated in the current PRD. . .
Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.
Its been repeatedly stated, though I long for an official FAQ, that Shield Master adds the shield AC bonus as a weapon enhancement bonus. That means bashing with a Light Shield gets you a +1 and a heavy shield +2. Because it is an enhancement bonus it will not stack with an an existing weapon enhancement bonus, you only get the better.Check out the new errata. It's incorporated in the current PRD. . .
Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.
I first wrote my post with what I remembered, in accordance to Maezer's post, but deleted the question because I re-read the PRD.
Otherwise, a +5 heavy shield with which you have Shield Focus would give you a +8 to attack and damage !
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Since a shield can only be used to make off-hand attacks ("You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."), you can't wield a light weapon in your other hand and get just -2/-2 penalties -- it would be -4/-4, so Shield Master would let you make attacks at -4/+0, -4 for the main hand attack, no penalties for the off-hand attack.
This part is inaccurate. You can wield the shield in your main hand as a primary weapon, I don't have the link to the FAQ explicitly stating such but the reason the shield slam section words it like that is because they assume most players would prefer to use the shield in their off hand due to the fact that MOST PCs wouldnt have the feats required to make MH shield bashes viable with a light weapon in your off hand.
This being the case with all viable feats you can attack at -0/-2 as long as you are using a light weapon in your off hand. I will search for reference right now actuallyOne question I have on this though is the addition of shield spikes to a magical shield. They have to be progressed separately and enchanted likewise. This being said would the following be possible
+5 Bashing Heavy Shield with a +5 whateverenchantmentyouwant set of Shield spikes.
They way I interpret it, the enhancement bonus to hit would apply only once but the enhancement to damage would stack. Am I correct in this?
Since a shield can only be used to make off-hand attacks ("You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."), you can't wield a light weapon in your other hand and get just -2/-2 penalties -- it would be -4/-4, so Shield Master would let you make attacks at -4/+0, -4 for the main hand attack, no penalties for the off-hand attack.
This part is inaccurate. You can wield the shield in your main hand as a primary weapon, I don't have the link to the FAQ explicitly stating such but the reason the shield slam section words it like that is because they assume most players would prefer to use the shield in their off hand due to the fact that MOST PCs wouldnt have the feats required to make MH shield bashes viable with a light weapon in your off hand.
This being the case with all viable feats you can attack at -0/-2 as long as you are using a light weapon in your off hand. I will search for reference right now actuallyOne question I have on this though is the addition of shield spikes to a magical shield. They have to be progressed separately and enchanted likewise. This being said would the following be possible
+5 Bashing Heavy Shield with a +5 whateverenchantmentyouwant set of Shield spikes.
They way I interpret it, the enhancement bonus to hit would apply only once but the enhancement to damage would stack. Am I correct in this?
enhancement bonus does not stack either to damage or to hit.
Personally I would advise to delete the part of enchanting shield spike separately and enchant a shield either as a weapon or a shield, a shield spike adding a bit to the base damage and a piercing type.
If you enchant a shield as both a weapon and a shield add 50 % to the cost of the enchantment you try to add.
I would like to see an official statement on the shield enhancement bonus counting as a special material if used to attack with the shield master feat.. personally I think it shouldn't.
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enhancement bonus does not stack either to damage or to hit.
Then I am to take that the Bashing enchantment on the shield would take up +1 of its possible +5 for its magical enhancment, leaving +5 for actual enhancement? Then you would need a +1 Shield spike with whatever specific weapon type enchantment you want?
So for instance a +5 for armor enhancement and then 5 points of special enhancement for the armor portion alone. So picking up +5 AC enhance, then bashing for +1 market price allowing for +4 total price remaining for normal enhancements? Or would the Weapon Enchantments be required to get on the Spike alone?
Or even the possibility to add bashing up to 5 times on a shield as a property?
Shield as weapon rules need to be cleaned up quite a bit I think lol
bashing isnt a weapon property, it is a shield property, it is nice to add to a shield for some decent offensive on an otherwise defensive item.
It does not give you the ability to add weapon properties or stack it with itself.
you could enchant the shield as a weapon aside the shield enchantments though you still need to enchant it to +1, so it would probably be better to leave the bashing property and enchant a shield spike as a weapon.
I agree it needs some cleaning up, not that I have much trouble sorting it out.. I just do not enchant shields as weapons.
Is there any way around the -4 penalty on to-hit for the main hand when also shield bashing? That seems like an overly steep penalty for something that is both costly and somewhat underwhelming offensively, particularly given the cost (2-4 feats).
... incredibly overpowered seeing as how you´re already wielding a 2d6 dmg weapon (heavy spiked shield w/bashing)
Shield spikes and bashing do not stack with each other.
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... incredibly overpowered seeing as how you´re already wielding a 2d6 dmg weapon (heavy spiked shield w/bashing)Shield spikes and bashing do not stack with each other.
They did in 3.5, language hasn't changed since, I'd go with that they still stack. And really, there's nothing in Pathfinder that says they don't. One increases the effective size by 1, the other increases the effective size by 2.
I believe James Jacobs did say he was against them stacking in one thread, but don't recall if that was an official FAQ response or more of a preferred stance.
In either case, for all the things you need to put in to get it, 2d6 for a weapon that needs to be off-hand isn't really that bad (or less for a light shield). It's an average of 3.5 damage more per hit than a regular short sword, and you need a good number of feats to get it. You'll also be taking the -4 on your *main* weapon, have less of a crit threat range than a short sword, and it won't be as flexible as one (in terms of swapping it out for other things).
Really, an average 3.5 damage more isn't broken. It's just a bit better than Weapon Specialization.
Could you verify that claim? I've seen the opposite stated many times and I haven't seen any proof to the contrary.... incredibly overpowered seeing as how you´re already wielding a 2d6 dmg weapon (heavy spiked shield w/bashing)Shield spikes and bashing do not stack with each other.
Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to
perform
a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a
weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus
deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8
points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon
when used to
bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial
piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a
shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature
one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on
Table 6–4). You can’t put spikes on a buckler or a tower
shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like
making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not
improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it,
but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in
its own right.
One thing people don't ever think of (and one thing people have already made mistakes regarding thus in this thread) is that bashing is not an "offensive" property. Bashing is a shield property. A +2 bashing shield gives +2 to AC, not to attack.
For example, you can have a +4 bashing/+3 fiery shield. You cannot have a +5/+3 fiery bashing shield. Bashing is a shield property, and not a weapon property.
My guess is that when you attack with shield spikes, you're not making a shield bash. You're stabbing with the spiked shield. You enchant the shield spikes.
At least, that's what I assume.
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One thing people don't ever think of (and one thing people have already made mistakes regarding thus in this thread) is that bashing is not an "offensive" property. Bashing is a shield property. A +2 bashing shield gives +2 to AC, not to attack.
For example, you can have a +4 bashing/+3 fiery shield. You cannot have a +5/+3 fiery bashing shield. Bashing is a shield property, and not a weapon property.
My guess is that when you attack with shield spikes, you're not making a shield bash. You're stabbing with the spiked shield. You enchant the shield spikes.
At least, that's what I assume.
Mostly correct, but I want to make a few clarifications. First of all, you are making a shield bash when you attack with your shield spikes. Really, all the spikes do is transform your shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase it's shield bash damage. It is still one shield, not a shield and spikes separately.
Second, when you enchant a shield you can choose to do so as a weapon or shield. Most of the time, it's the latter, but a shield can always be enhanced as either, shield spikes or not.
You are correct that a +2 bashing shield would add the +2 bonus to AC, and not on damage with Bashing. Bashing *does* include a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage when making shield bash attacks, but that's aside from everything else.
And yes, you can have a +4 Bashing / +3 Flaming Shield, assuming the former are the shield enhancements and the latter are the weapon enhancements.
Finally, I do want to say that the feat Shield Master will let you use your shield's enhancement bonus on your shield bashing. A +2 heavy shield could be used with Shield Master to apply that +2 to both AC *and* attack/damage.
A +2 bashing shield though already includes a +1 enhancement bonus from bashing, so using it with Shield Master only increases the attack/damage enhancement by +1 (take the highest).
Hope this helps!
This part is inaccurate. You can wield the shield in your main hand as a primary weapon, I don't have the link to the FAQ explicitly stating such but the reason the shield slam section words it like that is because they assume most players would prefer to use the shield in their off hand due to the fact that MOST PCs wouldnt have the feats required to make MH shield bashes viable with a light weapon in your off hand.
I'm fairly certain the errata didn't clarify this and I haven't seen an FAQ about it either yet. One of the last official answers we've heard on the boards was James saying "2 shield fighting was silly" and that it will be cleared up in the future. Other than that there hasn't been any official ruling saying what you are suggesting (unless I've missed something the last week or so, haven't had time to go through the boards as often as I'd like truthfully). Without errata or a post from one of the Paizo crew, RAW stating "off hand" is what I'm going to stick to.
Smurf it all! Shield's are FAR too overpowered ...
They need to smurf the heck down to something more reasonable!
aren't spikes and bashing both size bonuses to damage? therefore they don't stack. correct?
do the fighter double slide. get the shield tree and duel-wield shields. all the rest of you feats as fleet. so you can shield slide around the battlefield. hell with a diagonal 5ft step in the middle you can take people around corners. lol
Meh. Saying "You can drink milk" doesn't forbid you from pouring it in your sink. Saying "You can make off-hand attacks with a shield" doesn't forbid you from making main-hand attacks with it. That's how I read the rules.
And, the way I read it, Shield Master adds the shield's "enhancement bonus" (to shield bonus to AC) to attack and damage rolls.
Is there any way around the -4 penalty on to-hit for the main hand when also shield bashing? That seems like an overly steep penalty for something that is both costly and somewhat underwhelming offensively, particularly given the cost (2-4 feats).
As far as I know, it's easy...you dual wield shields. >_> <_< I suggest using klar instead of normal shields though, if you want to look slightly less ridiculous. ^_-
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aren't spikes and bashing both size bonuses to damage? therefore they don't stack. correct?
do the fighter double slide. get the shield tree and duel-wield shields. all the rest of you feats as fleet. so you can shield slide around the battlefield. hell with a diagonal 5ft step in the middle you can take people around corners. lol
They are both effectively damage bonuses but they work in a functionally different way. The magical effect gives the shield more "punch", more force behind the blow, whereas the spikes are... well just spikes lol. It works much like how Bulls strength and Divine Might both give strength bonuses and still stack.
As for the rest... I am lost in the rain on what you are talking about
aren't spikes and bashing both size bonuses to damage? therefore they don't stack. correct?
Case: you wield a spiked shield. You are the recipient of an Enlarge Person spell. Your shield does more damage than before.
Case: you wield a Bashing shield. You add spikes to it. Your shield does more damage than before.Since size increases aren't a bonus, I consider them stackable - even though it could be considered as cheesy in some circumstances.
Everything has a cost. Bashing and spikes costs money. Enlarge Person has a tactical cost (you are more visible, lose some AC, etc).
And a heavy Bashing spiked shield isn't much more than a non-magical greatsword (and Enlarge works on both).
Side question: beside Klars and Madus, are there Exotic shields?
Meh. Saying "You can drink milk" doesn't forbid you from pouring it in your sink. Saying "You can make off-hand attacks with a shield" doesn't forbid you from making main-hand attacks with it. That's how I read the rules.
And, the way I read it, Shield Master adds the shield's "enhancement bonus" (to shield bonus to AC) to attack and damage rolls.
The problem is they don't say "you can make off-hand attacks with a shield."
They say, specifically, that is is an off hand weapon when making a shield bash:
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. [It says the same under the light shield as well.]
Off-hand weapon attacks are pretty much only in play when you are doing TWF, if you are doing TWF with a shield by default the other weapon has to be the "main hand" by the rules printed in the book. I'm not saying you cannot rule otherwise in your games, feel free to house rule however you want, but we are here on the boards in the "Rules" section discussing what the rules say about certain actions, not the "House Rule" section discussing how you think it should be. Basically think of it like playing in an organized play game, written word in the book is what we should be discussing here on this particular forum.
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Off-hand weapon attacks are pretty much only in play when you are doing TWF, if you are doing TWF with a shield by default the other weapon has to be the "main hand" by the rules printed in the book. I'm not saying you cannot rule otherwise in your games, feel free to house rule however you want, but we are here on the boards in the "Rules" section discussing what the rules say about certain actions, not the "House Rule" section discussing how you think it should be. Basically think of it like playing in an organized play game, written word in the book is what we should be discussing here on this particular forum.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. [It says the same under the light shield as well.]
The worst I'd pull from your quote is that it always gets 1/2 str to damage and only a 1-for-1 on power attack (treated as offhand, and that's all that offhand really does). Since I'd imagine dual-shield fighting as being rather awkward (not to mention cheesy) I'd support this ruling, but not disallow a TWFer with two shields outright.
Regarding the "off-hand" comment, I know there are many threads discussing this and other shield-related questions (for instance, dual shields, another one, yet another one, shield mastery, shield bashing, and
TWD) but I haven't seen a conclusive official answer one way or another (although JJ offered several comments - one of which was like "if you give me real-world examples of a character fighting with two shields, I'd be less inclined to consider it silly" and another was like "if you wield two klars, the AC bonus don't stack. A klar's blade is like a shield spike"... so we're back at square one).
It can be argued that the whole shield feat tree was intended for characters with only one shield and is broken if a character wields two. But I find that restricting this by forbidding the use of a shield in the primary hand is overkill too. I think the uproar against the build is because of the Shield Master feat's wording. As it is, fighting with two heavy shields removes ALL TWF penalties - no Oversized TWF necessary; adding the shield's "enhancement bonus" (which can be as high as +5) to attack and damage too is just stacking cheese. 4-cheese 'zza anyone?
Dual shield builds aren't always "ridiculous", "impracticable", or "unheard of". Two examples: a picture (pointed out by Ravingdork), and the Libra Knight from Saint Seiya, who provides several sets of dual weapons, of which one is made of two shields (I know my references aren't always serious, I know). We can argue that there haven't been examples of such builds in our real world's history, but we aren't playing "revive history" here. It's a heroic fantasy RPG, and players do like options allowing them to disregard reality - spells and supernatural class abilities are such examples.
People (like me) wanting to create a character using the concept of "balance" want the same weapon for each hand. And, AFAIK, the shield is a perfectly acceptable weapon for such a build. After all, we could wield two Klars, couldn't we?
Side note: TWF characters often use the same weapon for both hands. I fear that this is because of the mechanics of Weapon Focus, which forces the user to choose one weapon. We could have more variety by allowing Weapon Focus to apply to similar weapons of different sizes (like Scimitar and Kukri).
Since there's no more answer on this, I think I'll make a dual-klar wielder (I know, I know, I'll get the AC bonus from only one of them - still better than nothing).
Klars being listed as Shields, I'm thinking about making Shield Slams with them. Is this legit?