Two-Weapon Rend (Combat)
Striking with both of your weapons simultaneously, you can use them to deliver devastating wounds.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Double Slice, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: If you hit an opponent with both your primary hand and your off-hand weapon, you deal an additional 1d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier. You can only deal this additional damage once each round.
When using a double weapon, such as a two-bladed sword for two-weapon fighting utilize the feat listed above, does the weapon qualify for the feat's ability? I need an official PFS ruling because I am torn between flavor and mechanics.
Any off-hand attack would qualify. So yes, this would include double weapons as well as two separate weapons.
I had one additional question: in PFRPG, do offhand attacks from two-weapon fighting require you to perform a full attack action?
In my games, my ruling would be no. The feat says simultaneous, which means at the same time. You cannot hit a target with both ends of a double weapon at the same time as it is physically impossible. This feat requires two separate weapons, one in each hand, that you can hit the target with at the exact same time.
This is a rules forum question. Moving to the appropriate forum.
I had one additional question: in PFRPG, do offhand attacks from two-weapon fighting require you to perform a full attack action?
In both 3.0/3.5 and PFRPG, barring certain feats, to get ANY additional attacks from any source you must do a full attack action.
So yes, off hand attacks from TWF require you to full attack to get them. As do attacks from the Haste spell or Haste weapon effect a additional examples.
Exeptions that come to mind are Cleave and Great Cleave, which specifically state their forms of extra attacks are done with only a Standard Action.
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In my games, my ruling would be no. The feat says simultaneous, which means at the same time. You cannot hit a target with both ends of a double weapon at the same time as it is physically impossible. This feat requires two separate weapons, one in each hand, that you can hit the target with at the exact same time.
Only the flavor description says that; the actual mechanics of the feat do not depend on doing two things simultaneously.
Which is good, because the rules don't actually allow you to make two attacks simultaneously; you have to make attacks in order. Nobody could actually use Rend if that requirement was real. Fortunately it's not; it's flavor.RAW, double-weapon Rend is perfectly fine. Just as, RAW, if you're wielding two weapons and you hit with the first attack on your primary weapon and the third attack with your off-hand, Rend still triggers.
But check with your GM because some might not like the flavor implications (just as some GMs don't like you using Cleave with a rapier).
Only the flavor description says that; the actual mechanics of the feat do not depend on doing two things simultaneously...
While I am usually all about having fluff as important as crunch I can see 0 reason to penalise a person further for using a double weapon beyond the Exotic weapon feat already required in addition to the numerous TWF feats as well.
It is easy enough to imagine the Double weapon doing a fast sweeping swing that rapidly strikes with both ends allowing the rend damage.
If they have honestly paid that many feats to use a double weapon with TWF then I see no RAW reason to deny them the use of the feat.
Have to vote with Avalon on this one.
Also, with TWF each additional attack requires a full attack action, correct?
Also, with TWF each additional attack requires a full attack action, correct?
You have to be using the full attack action in order to take any additional attacks with your off-hand weapon, yes.
Also, with TWF each additional attack requires a full attack action, correct?You have to be using the full attack action in order to take any additional attacks with your off-hand weapon, yes.
Thank you.
There is a similar thread in the forums and i'll try to hep here too.
If using 3.0,3.5 rules there are feats(two-weapon pounce,double strike, two-weapon attack of opportunity and some others) that allow you to use your off-hand attack in the same round you use your main.Think that by not using the off-hand weapon in the same round as main (situations like charge or the standard action)is like a two-handed weapon fighter does 3/5 dmg with his greatsword
If not then you have to use the full attack action to get the attacks from your off-hand weapon.
On the first topic. Yes you can rend with double weapons. To be even more specific you just need one attack from your main and one attack from your off-hand to hit to get the rend effect. These attacks dont have to be consecutive.
Read this :http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Two-Weapon-Rend-5-1-10-
There is a similar thread in the forums and i'll try to hep here too.
If using 3.0,3.5 rules there are feats(two-weapon pounce,double strike, two-weapon attack of opportunity and some others) that allow you to use your off-hand attack in the same round you use your main.Think that by not using the off-hand weapon in the same round as main (situations like charge or the standard action)is like a two-handed weapon fighter does 3/5 dmg with his greatsword
If not then you have to use the full attack action to get the attacks from your off-hand weapon.
On the first topic. Yes you can rend with double weapons. To be even more specific you just need one attack from your main and one attack from your off-hand to hit to get the rend effect. These attacks dont have to be consecutive.
Read this :http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Two-Weapon-Rend-5-1-10-
Any chance Pathfinder may incorporate such feats to support two-weapon fighting? I like the flavor of TWF but it seems inferior to a 2HW. Also, what are the sources of those feats for 3.0/3.5?
I really love TWF and in our games we use these 3.5 feats as well. But even without them a two-weapon fighter is a deadly opponent(in full-attack action, otherwise he deals 3/5 of a two-handed fighter weapon dmg).
Also i think that Pathfinder will indeed incorporate those feats as they did with Two-Weapon Rend.Here is all the two-weapon fighting feats :
Combat Reflexes Two-Weapon Fighting
Before you make an Attack of Opportunity, you may choose to attack with both weapons, taking the standard penalties for fighting with two weapons.
As a Standard Action, you can make a melee attack with your primary and off-hand weapon. Both attacks use the same attack roll and the worse of the two weapon’s attack modifier. If you are using a one-handed or light weapon in your off-hand, you take a –4 penalty; otherwise the penalty is –10. Each weapon deals its damage normally and reduction/resistance is applied separately. Precision damage (such as sneak attack) is only applied once. A critical hit only deals critical damage from the primary.
When you make an Attack of Opportunity, you are allowed an attack with each of your weapons, with the normal penalties for doing so. This counts as two of your Attacks of Opportunity per round and your maximum is not increased
At the end of a Charge, you may attack with both your primary & off-hand weapons. The +2 attack bonus for the Charge and the –2 penalty for fighting with two weapons cancel out. You still receive the –2 penalty to AC for the Charge.
If you damage an opponent with each of your weapons in a given round, you do extra damage equal to 1d6 + 1 ½ Strength modifier. With regards to Damage Reduction, use the off-hand weapon’s characteristics.
A given creature may only take this rending damage once per round.
If i miss anything i'll post it later.Also there are Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Defence that act like Two-Weapon defence but give higher bonus to AC (a TWF has prob with AC), and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting that treats your off-hand as light weapon even if it is one-handed (meaning you take the minimum penalties if you wield two bastard swords your are proficient with, for example)
As you can see Paizo has already incorporated Two-Weapon Rend and even buffed it :D(hope they do they do the same with other TWF feats)
In my games, my ruling would be no. The feat says simultaneous, which means at the same time. You cannot hit a target with both ends of a double weapon at the same time as it is physically impossible.
Are all the double weapons in S-shapes?
These are the main/base double weapons
And these are some more
So from what i saw i dont think all double weapons are S-shape
If it helps your suspension of disbelief, just imagine that two-weapon rend with a double weapon is because you are managing to work a two-handed strike in while you are making attacks with both ends.
Example: A person with a quarterstaff can fluidly switch between powerful two-handed strikes and quick strike with both ends a la dual wield. A person who is two-weapon rending managed to work a two-handed strike into the two-weapon sequence.
If two-weapon rend worked with double-weapons that are not flexible, then the feat would say consecutive, not simultaneous. It is simple, if you cannot hit with both attacks in the exact same instant, then it is not a rend. While the dictionary definition of rend does not say anything one way or the other about this, the definition implies using both hands at the same time. The feat needs to either be reworded or renamed to work the way people here say it works.
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If your argument is due to simultaneous, then you've rendered the feat impossible for even two separate weapons to use. Since attacks occur in order of attack bonus, there is an order, and thus a separation of attacks. Thus, no attacker would EVER get to use two-weapon rend.
However, James Jacobs has already weighed in on this subject.
"Q: So, if a character is allowed multiple attacks from the Improved Two-weapon Fighting feat and a high BAB, any 2 of those attacks could trigger Two-Weapon Rend as long as they are consecutive?
A: (James Jacobs 5/1/10) They just need to happen on the same round; they don't need to be consecutive. You just need to hit once with your primary hand weapon and once with your off hand weapon. Doesn't matter which attack, as long as one of each weapon hits.
And don't forget the last line of the feat description: "You can only deal this additional damage once each round.""
You can find this at the d20 pathfinder faq
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Two-Weapon-Rend-5-1-10-
Note that he specifies that the attacks don't even have to be consecutive, as long as one attack hits from the main hand, and one from the off hand within the same round.
Generally, flavor text is just that -- flavor text. It isn't generally meant to exactly mirror the mechanical effects of a feat. Those mechanical effects are specified on the benefits section within the feat.
I think people will keep arguing about this even if i've alredy posted the official explanation and now Magicdealer post it too.
I find the simultaneous thing just hilarious.As Magicdealer alredy said, rend would practically be useless for even two separate weapons to use since attacks occur in an order and thus noone can attack simultaneously a target.
I'll post the official explanation again(more times = better results?)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Two-Weapon-Rend-5-1-10-
If two-weapon rend worked with double-weapons that are not flexible, then the feat would say consecutive, not simultaneous. It is simple, if you cannot hit with both attacks in the exact same instant, then it is not a rend. While the dictionary definition of rend does not say anything one way or the other about this, the definition implies using both hands at the same time. The feat needs to either be reworded or renamed to work the way people here say it works.
You can't rend with two Blunt weapons either. Or two Piercing weapons. There is a reason the feat is not nit-picking like you are.
You can't rend with two Blunt weapons either. Or two Piercing weapons. There is a reason the feat is not nit-picking like you are.
Can you rend with Emily Blunt?
If two-weapon rend worked with double-weapons that are not flexible, then the feat would say consecutive, not simultaneous.
Is it really so hard for you to grasp the difference between the flavor description, words before the word "Benefit:", and the actual mechanics of the feat, words following "Benefit:"?
Simultaneous has no mechanical meaning. You're trying to use a word that's not part of defining what the feat does to limit the feat more than RAW or RAI.
Question on these two headed weapons.
Son has character with TWF and is using Orc Double axe.
He rushes two foes who are standing next to each other.
On his full round tunr, can he attack both - one with the first attack, and the other with the second? I understand that this would not allow him Rend (if he had it)
Thanks,
If you have multiple attacks you can address them to multiple targets. But, as you pointed out, Rend only triggers if both a main-hand and off-hand attack hit the same target.
If you need a flavor/image to justify the rules here how about: after a deep stab with the pointy end the weighted back side is swung in an overhead arc, causing the spear tip to tear out of the target's flesh and the bludgeoning end comes crashing down on the open wound. Or similiar gruesomeness to justify the bonus damage.