I have to admit, the DM sounds very much like a couple of people I once knew, who were determined to have their 'dream characters' and when told they would have to roll and deal with their rolls as such, and not have their ludicrous point-buys (we're talking a 42 point buy here, something our game group objected to pointedly) and when making their characters tried to push 'home brewed' rules that would allow them to continue on their merry ways.
When informed that A) they would be playing with RAW and B) neither the DM nor myself (As the DM's Assistant) would allow this ass-hattery to continue. Out of, at that time, twelve gamers, two of them were responsible for this and when told politely that it wasn't going to fly, they exploded, flipped the table over, swore and called everyone at the table faggots and stormed out of the house. Up until that game we'd never had any problems with them except for the occasional attempt to re-roll dice when the DM wasn't looking.
A powerful character is every Gamer's dream come true, and I think we can all agree on that. That said, if you character is more powerful than the other PCs, you will detract from their fun and possibly make the DM/GM work harder to compensate, a fact that can derail the game if your PC wanders off to do something else and the rest of the party is left to deal with a CR encounter that's way out of their league.
When making home-brew rules it is vital that A) they do not overly benefit one character or penalize them, and B) that they are balanced with the RAW. Trying to gimp the monk because it has been played by a successful Gamer is like trying to close the gate after the horse has bolted.
NOW... if the DM/GM had been less prone to asshattery he might have figured out that bringing this up with the player, pointing out the Monk was being too successful and that it was derailing the game, most players would happily take the nerf-bat to their own characters rather than risk the DM either calling the game and laying the tin-foil blame-hat on their heads or having the DM resort to ye olde 'rain of disintergration beams directly over your character's general vicinity' to fix the problem.
Altering the rules before the game is one thing, so you can bring it up with the Players before hand so they can alter their characters to suit is one thing. Changing the rules mid-game is a whole different kettle of fish and something that smells to me of a DM/GM getting too caught up in the Me vs Them mentality. DMs are supposed to challenge their players, not oppose them, either individually or in groups!
No revenge, no pettiness, no "I just have to make this one point..."
Just leave the game, shrug it off, tell mutual friends: "Ain't no thing."
Be mature and it'll save everyone stress and be the best lesson you can ever give to your peers.
This is your solution right here. It's just a game and there is no reason to turn your real lives into a melodrama over an imaginary character.
I'm about to start GMing my first actual PF game with 32-point buy. From what I'm reading here I take it that I should expect to have problems?
That's 3e point buy, yes?
If so, you will be alright. It makes classes like monk playable. It does give them a power boost, but nothing that cannot be fixed by some challenge adjustments (if you find that an encounter that is supposed to be challenging to them isn't, adjust all CRs downward by one, so CR 3 is CR 2 now, and encounters are built as if the critter were CR 2, and XP is awarded as if the critter were CR 2).
I could play a wizard with those stats
Str 9
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 10Hot damn!
Not hot enough.
Elf Wizard
Str 9 (-1)
Dex 19 (13)
Con 13 (7)
Int 24 (21)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 7 (-4)
Charisma is for people who talk. I am here to kill.
That's what 36 point buy can get you. Characters so rough they start with beyond human limits intelligence. The cha 7 means I'm autistic or have aspergers or something, but I know 7 languages at level one. : )
That seems to be the case here. Regardless of the rest of the party- the DM seems to think this monk is OP.. and from his perspective, he is.
Yeah, and from the Auditors' perspective, Live is messing everything up and should be eradicated so everything will be tidy again.
So why the DM hate? Why isn't the DM right for taking the problem by the horns and talking with the PC person to person and dealing with this in a professional manner?
Nothing wrong with that. If that was what he was doing, everything would be alright.
But he imagined stuff, did a completely inappropriate nerf, didn't allow a new character, and when the player wanted to talk, the guy screamed.
Therefore GM hate.
The DM found a problem and fixed it. I don't think that makes him "bad". It might make him new and with some learning to do, sure.. but "Bad"? I don't know.It sounds like he's doing his job..
Yeah, and when that customer complained that the desk we sold him hurts his left elbow, and I amputated his left arm for him, I was doing my job, too, as I fixed it.
(I didn't really, for I don't sell desks.)
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I dunno.
Usually if someone is too powerful for whatever reason, the boards council the DM talking to the PC and working out how the fix the problem.
The problem can be due to the PC making rules mistakes, or the DM being a rookie, or whatever.. but for *whatever* reason- a PC who is too powerful is too powerful..That seems to be the case here. Regardless of the rest of the party- the DM seems to think this monk is OP.. and from his perspective, he is. So why the DM hate? Why isn't the DM right for taking the problem by the horns and talking with the PC person to person and dealing with this in a professional manner?
The DM found a problem and fixed it. I don't think that makes him "bad". It might make him new and with some learning to do, sure.. but "Bad"? I don't know.
It sounds like he's doing his job..
-S
While we only have the player's version of events to go on, the DM shouting at his player and refusing to discuss the matter isn't in the realm of 'talking to the player and working out how the fix the problem' as far as I can see.
Edit: edited above as I don't talk to PCs. I talk to players ;)
Still, think about it. If (and it might well be) the player started the discussion with 'I asked in a web forum, they told me...' I'd be pissed as the gm in question if the player didn't talk to me first (I don't know if he did). The gm nerfing the pc in question is very probably wrong, but without knowing how the talking went and in what way the player adressed the problem I would not nknow if the very bad developement of the whle situation is the sole fault of the gm.
Almost every time I saw a situation like this develope (thankfully it didn't happen that often and even less often within a group of players), it took at least two people to bring it to boil.
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I would just leave at this point. If he had said all this stuff at the very beginning then (maybe) fair enough but changing halfway through is unfair. Also the fact he is not letting you change characters for a pretty weak reason convinces me that you would be better off without playing under him.You might leave, but I think that you'll carry a good deal of the problems with you. Part of the problems you have is that you are used to a style which has an extremely high point buy coupled with ridicoulously min-maxed stats.. producing an extremely one-dimensional play style.
A lot of things have gone wrong with your DM's game, but I daresay not all of them came from the DM.
Uh Im not the actual player.
The Gm and I had a discussion. He told me he had serious issues with the way I neutered my non-essential stats as he did have 36 points so that the characters are fair and balanced with no negative stats (similar to rolling) and he had an issue with the amount of power gaming I did in comparison to the other players who were not optimizing. So we decided that I will make a new character (with no negative stats) and hopefully we can put the incident behind us.
Thanks for the support guys.
As in raised his voice and told me that I shouldn't compare my 3/4 bab melee character vs the ranged full bab character when I started to compare the two. It's a good thing I'm moving out of here in july as he just officially embarrassed me infront my freinds in my own house. After the other players leave I'm going to give him a piece of my mind. I'm going out to the movies now instead of playing dnd.
Well, as a GM who has had to add a few house rules and some "common sense" rule interpretation, I can understand that sometimes you have to change things in a game.
But you need to do that after discussing this with ALL the players so that they all have some input. I am the GM, and it is, sort of, my game (but not really) but the other players have a stake in it as well.
We have a rules lawyer in our group, but he keeps it in check and he is geat when I need to know the rule on something or if I make a mistake (easy to do when you go from 3.5 to PF). He'll say "no, _________ is supposed to work like ________" and have the page ready.
If its an honest mistake, we go oops and move on.
We did the 4d6 drop lowest system and are using the Max HP at L 1 & 2 and 75% after that ruling, so the characters have a few extra HP and have a VASTLY different skew of stats. ( And after a player death we now have a Bugbear Monk...but it works).
All of this takes some change and adaptaion to the CR system and how combat is played. Sometimes there are REALLY tough fights. Soemtimes, soething I think is a challenge ends up being a cakewalk do to bad die rolls and good player tactics.
Either way, GMs have to adapt and sometimes have to ask players to change the rules with them.
But your GM sounds like a total @$$#ole. Sometimes I have to raise my voice to tell someone to stop being disruptive or to let another player speak. But your guy is just a jerk.
You're lucky to get out when you can.
Still, think about it. If (and it might well be) the player started the discussion with 'I asked in a web forum, they told me...' I'd be pissed as the gm in question if the player didn't talk to me first (I don't know if he did). The gm nerfing the pc in question is very probably wrong, but without knowing how the talking went and in what way the player adressed the problem I would not nknow if the very bad developement of the whle situation is the sole fault of the gm.
Almost every time I saw a situation like this develope (thankfully it didn't happen that often and even less often within a group of players), it took at least two people to bring it to boil.
Normally I'm the first one to jump to a DM's defence, don't get me wrong, but ... overpowered monk? If the PC was made within the rules of the game the DM should be nerfing everyone, not just one PC. I'm not saying the player is innocent, but the DM isn't doing his job very well and he's got to put his own house in order first.
Part of the problems you have is that you are used to a style which has an extremely high point buy coupled with ridicoulously min-maxed stats.. producing an extremely one-dimensional play style.
How can you know that?
You can only guess. Let me counter-guess: The fact that he's working with ability penalties indicates that he's used to lower-powered purchase methods, where it is often necessary to accept such penalties in order to get bonuses - especially for something as mad as monks (who need 4-5 ability scores in Pathfinder). The fact that the GM insisted on the 36 points is not the player's fault, you cannot attack him for that.
And is a character with weaknesses really more one-dimensional (let's assume that one-dimensional isn't an absolute term, so you can, in fact, be relatively one-dimensional. Maybe the stuff behind the decimal point) than the guy with 10s in everything he doesn't directly need (i.e. average joe the character-less character).
The Gm and I had a discussion. He told me he had serious issues with the way I neutered my non-essential stats as he did have 36 points so that the characters are fair and balanced with no negative stats (similar to rolling) and he had an issue with the amount of power gaming I did in comparison to the other players who were not optimizing. So we decided that I will make a new character (with no negative stats) and hopefully we can put the incident behind us.
Thanks for the support guys.
The guy screams at you in your own house in front of your friends?! ... and this is your reaction?
Forget about playing with him again. He is being abusive to you. All might seem good right now that you have agreed to a solution, but for the sake of your selfesteem and for the sake of your GM, you HAVE to leave the game.
You are moving in July anyway so I suggest you just make a clean cut. No drama, no debate.
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I would try to talk to the DM, but I would have one foot out the door as I did.
The mind control thing was already very annoying. Next he will make every fight in an anti-magic zone because you play a wizard...
Ooo...I love doing that to players we get to spend the entire session redoing stat blocks cause all the magic items don't work either :p
Ooo...I love doing that to players we get to spend the entire session redoing stat blocks cause all the magic items don't work either :pI would try to talk to the DM, but I would have one foot out the door as I did.
The mind control thing was already very annoying. Next he will make every fight in an anti-magic zone because you play a wizard...
Typical: Tell a Taldane about days filled with boring accounting work and they get all excited.
It's part of how you can tell where somewhere is from: You hand them a big book full of names and addresses.
Andoran: Those are just names. On paper. This book doesn't tell us whether they are FOR or AGAINST freedom. This is useless!
Drumish: Without their yearly income listed, how am I supposed to judge these people? I won't pay a copper for this book!
Chelish: *sigh* Let me guess: The usual - background check, couple of days surveillance, arrest if deemed appropriate. All hail the Infernal Machine *yawn*
Taldane: Great! I'll have it memorised till next week! Do you have anything else for me to memorise? A register of businesses? Their family trees? Please? Please??
they didn't even flavor Tian-Xia Yet. all we have is a miniparagraph devoted to the geography Minkai and Xa-Hoi, and a refrence to gender equality.
The Gm and I had a discussion. He told me he had serious issues with the way I neutered my non-essential stats as he did have 36 points so that the characters are fair and balanced with no negative stats (similar to rolling) and he had an issue with the amount of power gaming I did in comparison to the other players who were not optimizing. So we decided that I will make a new character (with no negative stats) and hopefully we can put the incident behind us.
Thanks for the support guys.
You might consider a bard. If you optimize a bard, the bonuses still go to other PCs.
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Normally I'm the first one to jump to a DM's defence, don't get me wrong, but ... overpowered monk? If the PC was made within the rules of the game the DM should be nerfing everyone, not just one PC. I'm not saying the player is innocent, but the DM isn't doing his job very well and he's got to put his own house in order first.Still, think about it. If (and it might well be) the player started the discussion with 'I asked in a web forum, they told me...' I'd be pissed as the gm in question if the player didn't talk to me first (I don't know if he did). The gm nerfing the pc in question is very probably wrong, but without knowing how the talking went and in what way the player adressed the problem I would not nknow if the very bad developement of the whle situation is the sole fault of the gm.
Almost every time I saw a situation like this develope (thankfully it didn't happen that often and even less often within a group of players), it took at least two people to bring it to boil.
I didn't mean to defend the gm's decision, nor his ability to do 'his job'. He was probably wrong. That said, some of the posts in this thread tend to paint him as a complete douchbag and disregard him on a level more personal than his gm-abilities - without knowing him or the complete situation leading to the escalation between him and said player. That was the point of my post, nothing else, I'm sorry if I phrased it wrong.
I didn't mean to defend the gm's decision, nor his ability to do 'his job'. He was probably wrong. That said, some of the posts in this thread tend to paint him as a complete douchbag and disregard him on a level more personal than his gm-abilities - without knowing him or the complete situation leading to the escalation between him and said player. That was the point of my post, nothing else, I'm sorry if I phrased it wrong.
I see what you mean, now! Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick. I am not saying the OP is blameless, either. Anyway, it looks like they got it sorted between them in the end, which is a good thing - I hope they both learn from the experience.
The Gm and I had a discussion. He told me he had serious issues with the way I neutered my non-essential stats as he did have 36 points so that the characters are fair and balanced with no negative stats (similar to rolling) and he had an issue with the amount of power gaming I did in comparison to the other players who were not optimizing. So we decided that I will make a new character (with no negative stats) and hopefully we can put the incident behind us.
Thanks for the support guys.
Okay, so since you will be continuing in the campaign:
Are you the most experienced player among the group? If so, it might be a good idea to take the back seat when it comes to battle tactics and such, so the other players (and the DM) get a chance to learn things through trial-and-error, rather than watching while you cleave through the opposition.
If you are not the most experienced player, then disregard the above :)
When this all goes terrible again, you'll wish you had gone with Operation: Throat Punch >:|
Time to make the most OP support character the world has ever seen. Just stay out of the front line combat scene. ;)
Ah, sweet violence. Is there any problem it can't solve?
I hate to say this but I was being a ass-hat last night to him aswell and not everything was one sided. As two adults we were able to put it behind us and have since then and according to freinds we both over-reacted.
I hate to say this but I was being a ass-hat last night to him aswell and not everything was one sided. As two adults we were able to put it behind us and have since then and according to freinds we both over-reacted.
Good for you both. I hope you both have many long days of good gaming ahead of you!
I hate to say this but I was being a ass-hat last night to him aswell and not everything was one sided. As two adults we were able to put it behind us and have since then and according to freinds we both over-reacted.Yay a happy ending
and gamer maturity beating nerd rage
Fear that nerdarian rage ...
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Fear that nerdarian rage ...I hate to say this but I was being a ass-hat last night to him aswell and not everything was one sided. As two adults we were able to put it behind us and have since then and according to freinds we both over-reacted.Yay a happy ending
and gamer maturity beating nerd rage
No! channel the rage!
Im a firm believer that if youre going to house rule anything the players need to be aware of it before it goes into effect. On top of that, changing rules after the game is started and not allowing players to tweak their characters with the new rules is pretty bad. I tend to want to think hes a bad DM and punishing you for no good reason but then I have to remember that I dont know the guy.
IMO the best way to approach the situation is to sit down and have a friendly talk about it. If you're not having fun with the game make sure to express that and be sure to explain why. It might even help to write out what your concerns are with the game because you might forget something when you have that talk. Although make sure you give him an equal chance to express himself as well and if you dont understand the reasoning behind something ask for it, I might even say demand it.
After that talk, if you still feel like you arent having fun and that things will continue as they have been then I would leave the game.
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Typical: Tell a Taldane about days filled with boring accounting work and they get all excited.It's part of how you can tell where somewhere is from: You hand them a big book full of names and addresses.
Andoran: Those are just names. On paper. This book doesn't tell us whether they are FOR or AGAINST freedom. This is useless!
Drumish: Without their yearly income listed, how am I supposed to judge these people? I won't pay a copper for this book!
Chelish: *sigh* Let me guess: The usual - background check, couple of days surveillance, arrest if deemed appropriate. All hail the Infernal Machine *yawn*
Taldane: Great! I'll have it memorised till next week! Do you have anything else for me to memorise? A register of businesses? Their family trees? Please? Please??
I get your point.
But min-maxed, GM annoying, or not, if the PC is from Taldor he will be the best dressed for any occasion.
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I hate to say this but I was being a ass-hat last night to him aswell and not everything was one sided. As two adults we were able to put it behind us and have since then and according to freinds we both over-reacted.
No worries, I actually got that impression from your last post and was going to say that it sounded like you made a declaration instead of trying to talk. But in the end you two worked it out. In the end you'll be able to start with a fresh character and he'll get a stat block closer to what I suggested earlier. (Hey KaeYoss :P j/k) Anywho, best of luck gaming, and I hope for your sake, your dm gets better at communicating his desires upfront so that you never get in a situation like this again. (I did say this situation was the DMs fault).
And he had no excuse to scream at you, I'm not trying to make him in any way the good guy, his reaction was childish no matter your behavior.
Ah, sweet violence. Is there any problem it can't solve?
Superabundance of Violence. Though the jury's still out on whether that is a problem or not.
Your Path-Fu is not as strong as mine Yosshopper
The GM, though, told me that no other character annoys him as much. Of course, my Pathf-Fu is strong, but still.
You are a Mere Apprentice compared to my Invinite Mastery. Bring it!
*Assumes Weaving Red Mantis Stance*
But min-maxed, GM annoying, or not, if the PC is from Taldor he will be the best dressed for any occasion.
Uhm... we didn't want to say anything, but that stuff went out of style for the last time about a thousand years ago. I think that bronze swords were a common accessory for that sort of dress, having been state-of-the-art tech back then...
Hey KaeYoss :P
*Puts Wow-wow sauce onto tongue*
No! channel the rage!Fear that nerdarian rage ...I hate to say this but I was being a ass-hat last night to him aswell and not everything was one sided. As two adults we were able to put it behind us and have since then and according to freinds we both over-reacted.Yay a happy ending
and gamer maturity beating nerd rage
I am a 5th Dan in origami! Behold my book of rules! Dare to challenge me and you will die the death of a thousand paper-cuts! And paper cuts really hurt!
Ah, sweet violence. Is there any problem it can't solve?Superabundance of Violence.
Kill the people being too violent. Problem solved (with violence)!
You also have an extra 4k gold pieces in magical items, which is in itself unbalancing in an equipment-heavy game like D&D.
He and Party are below WBL, so he isn't really have an extra.
Kill the people being too violent. Problem solved (with violence)!Ah, sweet violence. Is there any problem it can't solve?Superabundance of Violence.
I like the way you think.