Questions about Familars and Animal Companions?


Homebrew and House Rules


Hello,

New to the game but not very experienced with the rules in general. One thing I was curious about is/are Familars. Many people have said they never take them due one reason or anther, alot was to do with the old death penalty and such.

I was wondering if it would be possible and not unbalancing to treat familars as animal companions and advance them as such. Now this isn't to make mages have pet tanks and such as the rangers and druids do. I was mainly looking at ways to evlove them beyond wearable skill buffs.

Any ideas or two cents to throw in? I am looking over the Ani Comp stuff and thinking on it being reflected as a sneaky sneaky type of critter not a full blown combat aid. Keep the low Hit points and such but open up options. I personally think it will open up RP options as well as give a spell caster some not so glass cannon feel.

Dark Archive

in 3.5 U.A. had a variant that let you trade a familiar for an animal companion of a druid 1/2 your wiz/sorc level (minimum 1st level)

Scarab Sages

Well, a couple worthwhile mentions here.

Treating a familiar as both a familiar and an animal companion leads to some really EVIL synergy, as well as quickly boosting your companion up to human intelligence :p

If you stat them as an animal companion only, even just use animal companions, you're adding a significant amount of damage to the caster's dps potential. This may or may not be unbalancing, depending on your players.

Familiars get 1/2 the masters health, so they're much more survivable than they used to be. There's an Improved Familiar feat in pathfinder, that should get you some more use out of your familiar. I would definitely suggest taking the feat rather than allowing wizards to take animal companions.

Pathfinder made familiars a lot less fail than they used to be.

Note that if you allow one character in your game to trade for an animal companion, you should let any player playing a wizard to trade out.

Couple notes that might make this bad:

Share spells means the wizard can super buff the familiar up. With the wizard spell list, I could see picking through the creature options for one with, say, a really high strength score, and beastshape/elemental shape/form of the dragon into something really cheesy :p Gotta run to bed, but that's my knee jerk concern - the different spell lists and creature buffing.


I was curious mainly because familars seem so static, they get a little smarter and get some natural AC and the like as normal familar progression. but this is something Animal companions get as well but they get a little more detailed and advance in skills and abilities.

Improved Famiiliar is great step up. But do familar advance up like characters and get new skill points, feats and such like a Animal Compaion does?

I was also curious since reading over familars and the Animal Compaion info they share alot of some basic stuff in common on the table but Familar advancement info seems to fall off, while paladin mounts, ranger companions and such all use the Animal Ccompanion chart I wasn't sure if/why a familar would be left out. I could see using a different BaB and saves given a familars magical nature.

I can see where metagaming-munchkins could go ape crazy and make some nasty rules/templte mutation nightmares. But I was looking for option to give familars more bells and whistles not turn them into godzilla eating japan.

Just ideas I was hoping something fruitfull might grow out of.


VRDragon wrote:
I was curious mainly because familars seem so static

I'd say familiars are anything but! They might not become stronger and deal more damage - but they're not attack beasts, like animal companions are.

They do become smarter, and not just a bit - on higher levels, their intelligence might only be rivalled (and surpassed) by their master, making them the second-smartest critters in the whole party (or, in the case of an arcane sorcerer with a familiar, the smartest!). At one point, you'll have to ask whether the sorcerer isn't the familiar's man-pet instead of the familiar being the sorcerer's pet...

Beyond that, while they don't gain additional HD as such, they do gain many of the benefits from their master's HD/levels. Doesn't make them fighting machines, but they're really great scouts or sources of a second opinion in the case of all those knowledge skill checks (they do have their own modifier, which is their master's ranks plus their own, not-so-crappy Int). And there's the deliver touch spell thing.

Grand Lodge

VRDragon wrote:

I was curious mainly because familars seem so static, they get a little smarter and get some natural AC and the like as normal familar progression. but this is something Animal companions get as well but they get a little more detailed and advance in skills and abilities.

Familliars get the MASTER's skill ranks. So they advance in skills when thier masters do. And they have a lot more skills than some dumb animal.


LazarX wrote:
VRDragon wrote:

I was curious mainly because familars seem so static, they get a little smarter and get some natural AC and the like as normal familar progression. but this is something Animal companions get as well but they get a little more detailed and advance in skills and abilities.

Familliars get the MASTER's skill ranks. So they advance in skills when thier masters do. And they have a lot more skills than some dumb animal.

So as a Master gains level and the Familiar's Hit Dice thus increase does it also gain bonus feats, etc like any other improving critter?

Alot of this is kind of focuses towards the more preditory familiar base animals like hawks or the improved familars.


Familiars don't gain any real HD, but they don't need to.

If an effect based on HD hits them, they use their master's HD total.

They use their master's skill ranks (but their own ability modifiers) or their own normal animal ranks (if higher).

They use the master's base attack (and technically get weapon finesse for free!)

They use the master's base saves, or their own, whichever is higher (usually the master's, but prior to about level 9, the familiar's base fort is better).

As far as utility goes, Familiars start at intel 6. Fully capable of understanding most simple sentances and a modest vocabulary. Picture interacting with an eight year old who is emotionally mature, responsible, and will actually do what you say. You may not be able to give long or complex commands, but you can certainly tell it to "go up the stairs, wait for the guard to sleep, and then steal his keys. Don't wake him up!"

At higher intelligence, you can go even crazier. Especially when you consider at about level 10, a cheap headband of charisma +2 plus the master's ranks could give the familiar a 50/50ish chance to use wands via Use Magic Device. (Possibly better, if the familiar also gets the +3 class skill bonus). When the toad in your pocket is gunning down minions with magic missels, its a good day.

Grand Lodge

VRDragon wrote:
LazarX wrote:
VRDragon wrote:

I was curious mainly because familars seem so static, they get a little smarter and get some natural AC and the like as normal familar progression. but this is something Animal companions get as well but they get a little more detailed and advance in skills and abilities.

Familliars get the MASTER's skill ranks. So they advance in skills when thier masters do. And they have a lot more skills than some dumb animal.

So as a Master gains level and the Familiar's Hit Dice thus increase does it also gain bonus feats, etc like any other improving critter?

No because they don't get "real" HD, merely effective ones for calculating BAB and saves.


LazarX wrote:
No because they don't get "real" HD, merely effective ones for calculating BAB and saves.

"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."

"A feat is an ability a creature has mastered. Feats often allow creatures to circumvent rules or restrictions. Creatures receive a number of feats based off their Hit Dice, but some classes and other abilities grant bonus feats."

If poison DC's are based off of the virtual hit dice then it seems to me that should be enough to get the feats too -- but that's just me.

I really don't see a problem with letting familiars having feats.

Grand Lodge

Abraham spalding wrote:
LazarX wrote:
No because they don't get "real" HD, merely effective ones for calculating BAB and saves.

"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."

"A feat is an ability a creature has mastered. Feats often allow creatures to circumvent rules or restrictions. Creatures receive a number of feats based off their Hit Dice, but some classes and other abilities grant bonus feats."

If poison DC's are based off of the virtual hit dice then it seems to me that should be enough to get the feats too -- but that's just me.

I really don't see a problem with letting familiars having feats.

It's obvious that you can do whatever you want to at home. What you asked about is what the RAW says and that's it. Actually I can give you a very good reason why. Familliars unlike animal companions are essentially an extension of thier masters. They're not intended to give you a complete second character for the price of one.


LazarX wrote:
It's obvious that you can do whatever you want to at home. What you asked about is what the RAW says and that's it. Actually I can give you a very good reason why. Familliars unlike animal companions are essentially an extension of thier masters. They're not intended to give you a complete second character for the price of one.

Well this is the completely wrong forum for "RAW".

I'm not asking for a second complete character -- if I was I would take either leadership or ask to play two characters -- not some animal without opposable thumbs (in most cases) that are tiny with no features of their own to speak of.

They use my skills, my saves, my BAB, either they need to use my feats too or get their own... honestly that would work for me too -- if they simply used my feats.


Okay, I think I came at this from the wrong approach vectors.

Since all the other types of companions are based on the animal companion chart and such. How would one GM go about adapting familars to use the same chart for growth?

Ideas and such please? Looking forward to input.

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