I'm currently doing a conversion of the original The Keep on the Borderlands module, and would really like to know if NPCs get favored class bonuses. I can't find a definitive answer in the rules and my 15 minute search in the archives turned up a lot of half-baked posts on the issue.
So:
1) Do NPCs with PC class levels get favored class bonuses?
2) Do NPCs with NPC class levels get favored class bonuses?
Thanks in advance. There's a lot of NPCs in that module!
Give the NPCs their favored class bonuses. They began play, so to speak, so they should have a chosen class that hopefully matches their current class. It doesn't hurt much either; just add some hp or a few extra skill points. Since you're doing KotB, I'd add the hp to make things simpler, at least for combat encounters.
As written, there's no mention of excluding FC bonuses based on PC vs. NPC classes under the Favored Class entry of the PRD, so I think class is irrelevant. I admit, it's not mentioned under NPC generation, but that could just be to avoid repetition.
I know I could rule it either way, but it would be nice to know for those people who might entertain the thought of publishing their own work some day through the OGL terms.
|
They get them. The NPCs in Council of Thieves and Kingmaker all have favored class bonuses, if you reverse engineer the math. I asked James a while back about this when updating the Legacy of Fire creatures and he indicated that they do generally give NPCs a favored class bonus, even if it isn't otherwise indicated in the statblock.
I was trying to reverse engineer some of the NPCs in the bestiary, namely hobgoblins, goblins and orcs. What I found when doing so was that:
Orcs: had too low an Int score to know for sure.
Hobgoblins: (fighter 1):
Hp 11 (5 from HD, +3 Con, +3 Toughness)
2 Skill points total (2 skill points per level, no Int bonus)
Perception +2 (+1 skill point, +1 Wis)
Stealth +6 (+1 skill point, +2 Dex, +4 racial, -2 AC penalty)
Goblins: (warrior 1):
Hp 6 (5 from HD, +1 Con)
3 Skill points total (2 skill points per level, no Int bonus, +1 favored class)
Ride +10 (+1 skill point, +2 Dex, +3 class skill, +4 racial)
Stealth +10 (+1 skill point, +2 Dex, +3 class skill, +4 racial)
Swim +4 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill)
So looking at these 3 creatures, I can’t tell from the orc stat block, the hobgoblin stat block indicates that there is no favored class bonus, and the goblin stat block indicates that there is. I haven’t looked closely at other stat blocks in the bestiary yet. The situation with the 3 monsters above prompted me to post the question.
Thanks Karui Kage. I'll take the fact that you received confirmation from Mr. Jacobs that favored class bonuses are intended to be applied to NPCs as well, regardless of my personal number crunching of stat blocks from the bestiary serving only to confuse me on the matter. :)
I was trying to reverse engineer some of the NPCs in the bestiary, namely hobgoblins, goblins and orcs. What I found when doing so was that:
Orcs: had too low an Int score to know for sure.
Hobgoblins: (fighter 1):
Hp 11 (5 from HD, +3 Con, +3 Toughness)2 Skill points total (2 skill points per level, no Int bonus)
Perception +2 (+1 skill point, +1 Wis)
Stealth +6 (+1 skill point, +2 Dex, +4 racial, -2 AC penalty)
Goblins: (warrior 1):
Hp 6 (5 from HD, +1 Con)
3 Skill points total (2 skill points per level, no Int bonus, +1 favored class)
Ride +10 (+1 skill point, +2 Dex, +3 class skill, +4 racial)
Stealth +10 (+1 skill point, +2 Dex, +3 class skill, +4 racial)
Swim +4 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill)So looking at these 3 creatures, I can’t tell from the orc stat block, the hobgoblin stat block indicates that there is no favored class bonus, and the goblin stat block indicates that there is. I haven’t looked closely at other stat blocks in the bestiary yet. The situation with the 3 monsters above prompted me to post the question.
Actually, with the Bestiary Errata, the reverse engineering looks like this:
- Goblin Warrior 1:
hp 6 (1d10+1) (5 from HD, +1 Con)
Ride +10 (1 skill point, +3 class, +2 Dex, +4 Racial, *-1 Light Wooden Shield (penalty missing))
Stealth +10 (0 skill points, +4 Racial, +4 Size, +2 Dex, *-1 Light Wooden Shield (penalty missing))
Swim +4 (1 skill point, +3 class, +0 Str, *-1 Light Wooden Shield (penalty missing))
total skill points: 2 (2 class, 0 Int)
Favored Class bonus is not included - and the Goblin has taken an NPC Class (which is indicative). Please note that Stealth both benefits from the Racial bonus (due to the Skilled Racial Ability) AND the Size bonus (being Small size), so it has no skill points invested in it.
It's true that the -1 for using the Shield is not included - maybe the stats are calculated with the Shortbow (without Shield on hand), although it would be a bit strange (however, for the Swim skill, I find more realistic a Goblin who tries to swim WITHOUT his shield readied :D )
- Hobgoblin Fighter 1:
hp 12 (1d0+7) (5 from HD, +3 Toughness, +3 Con, +1 favored class)
Perception +2 (1 skill point, +1 Wis)
Stealth +5 (1 skill point, +4 racial, +2 Dex, -1 Light Steel Shield, -1 Studded Leather)
total skill points: 2 (2 class, 0 Int)
Favored Class bonus is indeed included, and the class is a Core Class (not Prestige Class, nor NPC Class)
- Orc Warrior 1:
hp 6 (1d10+1) (5 from HD, +1 Con)
Intimidate +2 (1 skill point, +3 class, -2 Cha)
Total skill points: 1 (2 class, -2 Int, minimum 1) (under Intelligence the rules say 'You apply your Intelligence modifier to (...) the number of skill points gained each level, though your character always get at least 1 skill point per level')
Again, Favored Class bonus is not included, and the Orc has taken an NPC Class.
This leads to the answer that NPCs can gain Favored Class bonuses, but only Core Classes can be taken for Favored Class bonuses.
Well, so much for having it solved. :) I was just perusing the bestiary errata today (missed the +1 hp for the hobgoblin). I just posted a discrepancy in the errata for kobolds in the thread for the bestiary errata indicating that they forgot to include favored class bonus for the kobold.
So back to my 1st questions:
1) Do NPCs with PC class levels get favored class bonuses?
The answer is presumably: YES.
2) Do NPCs with NPC class levels get favored class bonuses?
The answer is presumably: NO.
Is this right?
P.S: I think I'll look in the NPC guide and try to reverse build those stat blocks.
This favored class bonus rule is becoming more of a headache than it's worth.
So back to my 1st questions:
1) Do NPCs with PC class levels get favored class bonuses?
The answer is presumably: YES.2) Do NPCs with NPC class levels get favored class bonuses?
The answer is presumably: NO.Is this right?
I believe so.
As a last conversion, I've taken an easy creature, the Aasimar Cleric 1°:
hp 11 (1d8+3) (8 from HD - don't ask, this one has maximum hp for her first HD, while the Hobgolin has not; ah, even the tiefling has maximum hp for his first Rogue HD, btw, and the Vampire Sorceress... it seems that the Hobgoblin is still wrong - , +2 Con, +1 favored class)
Diplomacy +8 (1 skill point, +3 Class, +2 Cha, +2 Racial)
Heal +7 (1 skill point, +3 Class, +3 Wis)
Perception +5 (on the Senses entry) (0 skill points, +3 Wis, +2 Racial)
Knowledge (Religion) +5 (1 skill point, +3 Class, +1 Int)
total skill points: 3 (2 class, +1 Int)
Favored Class bonus is indeed included, and the class is a Core Class (not Prestige Class, nor NPC Class)
So, yes, I would say without a doubt that point 1) is effectively a YES.
Point 2) is reasonably a NO, but I'm not a developer and I can only argue (although the hints strongly point in that direction).
Further research:
Duergar (with errata factored in)
Warrior 1
HP: 7 (1d10, +2 Con)
Skills (2 from warrior)
Intimidate +1 (+1 skill point, -3 Wis, +3 class skill)
Stealth -3 (+1 skill point, -1 Dex, +4 racial, -7 armor check penalty)
Svirfneblin (no errata that I’m aware of)
Ranger 1
HP: 15 (1d10, +2 Con, +3 Toughness)
Skills (6 from ranger)
Craft (alchemy) +6 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill, +2 racial)
Heal +4 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill)
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill)
Perception +6 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill, +2 racial)
Stealth +12 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill, +2 racial, +4 size, +2 Dex)
Survival +4 (+1 skill point, +3 class)
Tengu (no errata that I know of)
HP: 9 (1d8, +1 Con)
Skills (8 from rogue)
Acrobatics +7 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill, +3 Dex)
Appraise +4 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill)
Bluff +3 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill, -1 Cha)
Climb +5 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill, +3 Dex)
Knowledge (local) +4 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill)
Linguistics +8 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill, +4 racial)
Perception, +8 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill, +2 Wis, +2 racial)
Stealth +9 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill, +3 Dex, +2 racial)
All these stat blocks are missing a favored class bonus, unless my math is off.
An NPC from the NPC Guide:
Mercenary Captain
Human warrior 2
HP: 15 (2d10, +2 from Con(12), +2 from favored class)
Skills (4 from warrior levels, 2 from human racial feature = 6)
Craft (sculpture) +4 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill)
Diplomacy +1 (+1 skill point)
Intimidate +4 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill)
Perception +1 (+2 skill points, -1 Wis)
Profession (cook) +3 (+1 skill point, +3 class skill, -1 Wis)
Here is an example of an NPC class with favored class bonus factored in.
I think, without breaking down more stat blocks, that Karui Kage has it right, that the intent is that ALL classes, save prestige classes get a favored class bonus and that the bestiary stat blocks are a little screwed up, even with errata.
Sorry if there's a more recent thread on this. I googled my question and this thread was the first one Google returned on the Paizo forums.
I just went backwards from the stats on the Sczarni Smuggler in NPC Guide and it looks like he doesn't have any favored class bonuses. (He's a rogue level 2.)
I'm using him as a baseline for an undead template (dread ghoul from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary) and I'm giving him a couple more rogue levels.
Was this question ever definitively answered?
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
The answer is in the FAQ, currently found here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nad
Hit Points: What creatures get max hit points for their first level or first Hit Die? What creatures get favored class bonuses to hit points or skills?
Creatures whose first Hit Die is from a PC-appropriate character class gain max hit points for that Hit Die. The current list of PC-appropriate character classes is alchemist, arcanist, barbarian, bard, bloodrager, brawler, cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, gunslinger, hunter, investigator, inquisitor, magus, monk, oracle, paladin, ranger, rogue, shaman, skald, slayer, sorcerer, summoner, swashbuckler, warpriest, witch, and wizard (including archetypes, subclasses, and other variants of these classes).
Creatures whose first Hit Die is from an NPC class (adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, warrior) or from a racial Hit Die (such as most monsters) do not get maximum hit points for that Hit Die.
All creatures with class levels (including those with levels in an NPC class or monsters with class levels) may select a favored class and gain the normal favored class benefits. Creatures never gain favored class benefits for racial Hit Dice.
For example, a human warrior 1 could select "warrior" as his favored class and take either the bonus hit point or skill rank for taking a level in that class. A normal bugbear with 3 racial Hit Dice and no class levels has no favored class and no favored class bonuses, but if that bugbear gained a level in rogue, he could choose "rogue" as his favored class and take either the bonus hit point or skill rank for taking a level in that class.
