I am wondering if any DMs have experience with bards in their party and if inspire courage builds have been to powerful?
I have a group of 6 with a new bard who can give everyone a +3hit/+4damage for every combat a party fights and this is at 4th level. With a 5th level item from the Complete Adventurer it can go up to +4/+5 for 3 combats a day.
I envision with 6 players these kinds of abilities and items could tip the encounter balances.
Thoughts?
Well either you bard player is realy, realy into optimization or he just hates you. My guess is he thinks he's very clever AND hates you...
Well either you bard player is realy, realy into optimization or he just hates you. My guess is he thinks he's very clever AND hates you...
The funny thing is that he isn't using anything funky. Its a spell from the compete adventurer that adds +1, a masterwork instrument +1 and a 5th level magic item, +1.
strange
Well either you bard player is realy, realy into optimization or he just hates you. My guess is he thinks he's very clever AND hates you...The funny thing is that he isn't using anything funky. Its a spell from the compete adventurer that adds +1, a masterwork instrument +1 and a 5th level magic item, +1.
strange
None of which should stack. Perhaps by the rules as listed in those various sources they would, but they were all designed saying, "Oh hey, Bards needs a little boost - how about +1 to inspire courage? Here's a spell/item/other-item to do that."
By the way.. masterwork instrument? Is this somewhere special, because that doesn't normally affect the inspire.
Well either you bard player is realy, realy into optimization or he just hates you. My guess is he thinks he's very clever AND hates you...The funny thing is that he isn't using anything funky. Its a spell from the compete adventurer that adds +1, a masterwork instrument +1 and a 5th level magic item, +1.
strange
None of which should stack. Perhaps by the rules as listed in those various sources they would, but they were all designed saying, "Oh hey, Bards needs a little boost - how about +1 to inspire courage? Here's a spell/item/other-item to do that."
By the way.. masterwork instrument? Is this somewhere special, because that doesn't normally affect the inspire.
You are incorrect, these things do stack. Its 3.5 and not pathfinder. The masterwork instrument and the swift action spell do stack, as does the magic item, as does the feat.
Masterwork Drum adds +1 to the damage mod for inspire courage for the cost of -1 save vs fear and charm, its in the complete adventurer. They all have effects, The fiddle helps with the bard's suggestion power for example.
Jay, what type of bonuses are they?
Masterwork drum
Bardic Music: When a bard uses a drum to inspire courage,the morale bonus on weapon damage rolls increases
by 1, but the morale bonus on saves against charm and
fear is reduced by 1.
Level 1 spell
Inspirational Boost: Swift. The bonuses granted by
your inspire courage ability increase by 1.
Those are 2 copied out of the book word for word.
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What's the magic item?
And you mentioned a feat?
I'm at work, and haven't access to my library, Jay, so I beg your indulgence for another question: what's the duration for inspiration boost? I ask because 1st-level swift spells don't normally last very long.
In any case, the character is drumming (a standard action, requiring at least one hand) for the duration of the bardic performance, instead of acting more aggressively himself. It's what he really wants to do.
If you wanted to give the party a chance to fight without his inspiration, so to better appreciate it when its available, you could give him a large trout to hold, requiring both hands.
What's the magic item?
And you mentioned a feat?
I'm at work, and haven't access to my library, Jay, so I beg your indulgence for another question: what's the duration for inspiration boost? I ask because 1st-level swift spells don't normally last very long.
In any case, the character is drumming (a standard action, requiring at least one hand) for the duration of the bardic performance, instead of acting more aggressively himself. It's what he really wants to do.
If you wanted to give the party a chance to fight without his inspiration, so to better appreciate it when its available, you could give him a large trout to hold, requiring both hands.
The effect lasts until your inspire
courage effect endsThe feat is called Heart of the Song I think and the magic item is a Badge of Valor, same type of wording, The bonuses granted by
your inspire courage ability increase by 1.
I dont think it would be game breaking at all. The pcs will need all the buffs they can get, and plenty of the villians in the ap have silence memorised (or maze at later levels) if it bugs you.
The party I DM for in AoW has a bard, and yes, his inspire courage is a great boon to the players, and thus he uses it in almost any fight. They have been saying that thanks to this ability, he becomes the "damage leader", if you'd add up all the extra damage the others do for hitting harder and more often. I tend to agree, although status effects are even more important in higher level play (Otto's, for instance). Still, I'm ok with that. This is what teamwork is about.
Now, he "only" adds +4/+5, and this is at PC level 18. (He has multiclassed a bit; and Tenser has given him a magical elixir that adds +1/+1 plus +1 sonic damage as a reward for the piece of the rod of seven parts). The numbers you give are the same, at level 5, thus surpassing other available buffs by far. And this is a problem. If inspire courage is the only buff that matters, the players can start the paingiving right away, don't have to rely on other buffs (which cost actions), positioning, and maybe crowd control. In essence, it gets boring.
So I would, in your case, restrict the available feats/spells/items your bard can use. Role zero that they don't stack. Or that only two stack. Or that stacking requires extra daily uses of bardic music. Talk to the player, reason that his super-inpriration is cool, but will make play boring in the long term (as the others don't have to resort to their extra abilities), and ask him what he would like to change. Then make an agreement.
This may seem contraintuitive to "rule persistency", so I'd like to add a little reasoning here. When I started DMing, I thought that by telling the players which books are "legal", I'd save myself time and trouble. Boy, was I wrong. The reverse is true. We now play by the general rule that core is ok and other things have to be approved on a case by case basis, and that I can even rule out things we tested in play. For instance, I allowed a player to pick death pact (SC), and we played a session. After seeing it in action, I ruled it out, and general concensus was that I did rightly so. I even changed some core spells (disjunction, gate), and everybody is cool with that. I have learned to never underestimate a player's sense for fairness and balance. In the end, DMing is about mutual trust, and this stems from the mutual agreement that playing should be fun (not boring).
The party I DM for in AoW has a bard, and yes, his inspire courage is a great boon to the players, and thus he uses it in almost any fight. They have been saying that thanks to this ability, he becomes the "damage leader", if you'd add up all the extra damage the others do for hitting harder and more often. I tend to agree, although status effects are even more important in higher level play (Otto's, for instance). Still, I'm ok with that. This is what teamwork is about.
Now, he "only" adds +4/+5, and this is at PC level 18. (He has multiclassed a bit; and Tenser has given him a magical elixir that adds +1/+1 plus +1 sonic damage as a reward for the piece of the rod of seven parts). The numbers you give are the same, at level 5, thus surpassing other available buffs by far. And this is a problem. If inspire courage is the only buff that matters, the players can start the paingiving right away, don't have to rely on other buffs (which cost actions), positioning, and maybe crowd control. In essence, it gets boring.
So I would, in your case, restrict the available feats/spells/items your bard can use. Role zero that they don't stack. Or that only two stack. Or that stacking requires extra daily uses of bardic music. Talk to the player, reason that his super-inpriration is cool, but will make play boring in the long term (as the others don't have to resort to their extra abilities), and ask him what he would like to change. Then make an agreement.
This may seem contraintuitive to "rule persistency", so I'd like to add a little reasoning here. When I started DMing, I thought that by telling the players which books are "legal", I'd save myself time and trouble. Boy, was I wrong. The reverse is true. We now play by the general rule that core is ok and other things have to be approved on a case by case basis, and that I can even rule out things we tested in play. For instance, I allowed a player to pick death pact (SC), and we played a session. After seeing it in action, I ruled it out, and general concensus...
Thank you for your post.
I did outlaw the feat because it was from the Ebberon setting and seeing that your bard had +4/+5 at level 18 and mine has it at level 5 I think I'm going to say one spell and one item boost total on inspire courage. Your right its tricky as there are so many items and he really wasn't being a douch, he only used the complete adventurer. I think masterwork instruments are to powerful as they give a bonus to all 6 party members for the cost of 1 masterwork item.
Jason
You are incorrect, these things do stack. Its 3.5 and not pathfinder.
You're right, I completely missed that.
In any case, the character is drumming (a standard action, requiring at least one hand) for the duration of the bardic performance, instead of acting more aggressively himself. It's what he really wants to do.
Maintaining inspire courage is a free action, not standard, even in 3.5 (even in 3.0).
True enough. But it still requires at least one free hand.
Maintaining inspire courage is a free action, not standard, even in 3.5 (even in 3.0).
Right but that doesn't matter. He stopps drumming and the effects last 5 rounds, plus with feats and abilities he can have the effect last 8 rounds past when he stops drumming. My point is anyway you look at it the benefits last most entire combats, even when he stops and starts doing other things.
Better hope that your player doesn't discover Admiral's Bicorne fromw Stormwrack. :D
Better hope that your player doesn't discover Admiral's Bicorne fromw Stormwrack. :D
Thats item is 51,000 gold and 10th level at that.
Better hope that your player doesn't discover Admiral's Bicorne fromw Stormwrack. :DThats item is 51,000 gold and 10th level at that.
Since AoW goes up to 20th lvl where each player will have around 750 000 in gold, I don't see the problem.
I would allow the players to have their fun with their builds. Just adjust the opposition if you feel it is too weak: add more opponents or make them stronger.
I would allow the players to have their fun with their builds. Just adjust the opposition if you feel it is too weak: add more opponents or make them stronger.
The problem with that is adding things can easily kill the rest of the party, just to counter his ability.
Once in a while use silence to keep the bard quiet. Throw in calm emotions to deal with the morale bonuses. Heightened, Spell Focused at that.