A monk who is proficient with a temple sword, since it's a monk weapon, could choose to use it for all his FoB attacks. But could a monk who had two temple swords, one in each hand, strike with each of them during a FoB? Or would this incur additional penalties for using two medium weapons, a la Two Weapon Fighting?
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You would only incur two-weapon fighting penalties if you were actually using two weapon fighting.
Using two weapons, as long as they're not two-handed weapons, would function the same as a fighter with three iterative attacks who uses a different weapon for each attack.
You should be fine as long as you don't try to grab extra attacks over the FoB chain out of it.
Flurry of Blows says you can fight "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". It also lets you make your full flurry with just a single weapon.
So let's say your monk has a +1 flaming templesword in his right hand and nothing in his left hand. He can make his entire flurry of blows with just that one temple sword if he wants to, in which case there are no penalties (well, the FOB column in the monk level chart already includes a -2 penalty, which does apply, but there are no additional penalties).
The same monk might pick up a +1 frost kama with his other hand. Of course, he could still just use his temple sword, or just use his kama, or he could make some flurry attacks with each weapon. In all 3 cases, there is no additional penalty because his "off-hand" weapon is a light kama and the -2 is already built into the FOB level chart.
And that same monk might drop his +1 frost kama and pick up a +1 keen temple sword, so now he is holding two temple swords. He could flurry with just one of them, striking repeatedly with either the keen sword or the flaming sword, but not using both. As always, he just uses the BAB shown on the level chart with the -2 built in.
But if he wants to use both temple swords at the same time, in the same flurry of blows action, then we fall back to the original wording: "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat". According to that feat, the penalty should be -4 on both weapons. Since we know the monk already has the -2 built in, we need to subrtract another -2 from his attack rolls.
QED.
Caveat: I'm sure this has been asked a million times, and somewhere in all that, maybe someone official came out and said that everything I wrote here is wrong and the official Paizo team has a different way to interpret/enforce flurry of blows. If so, then I'm wrong (and I'd love to see the cite).
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You're right. I can totally follow that line of reasoning.
I looked through the core rulebook, and only two-handed weapons and light weapons are monk melee weapons in the equipment section.
So then...
FoB states that the bab is equivalent to the monk level. So it looks to me like the chart for FoB on page 58 is calculated with the -2 penalty already applied for two weapon fighting with light weapons. The penalty for using two 1-handed weapons is a total of -4, or -2 from the Flurry of Blows chart *since the first -2 is already factored in there*
As per the previous post :)
It's just not something that was really explicitly laid out in core, since they didn't have an option for a 1-handed monk weapon.
So disregard my first, incorrect post, and instead regard this much improved, more accurate that ever before post.
I found some weird builds for monks which allowed them to stack their Flurry of Blows ability with the TWF feat tree (up to a ridiculous 36 attacks per round). I always thought that a Flurry was made with different weapons, but the above posts indicate that a monk could make his whole Flurry with one weapon. Does that mean that, by selecting TWF/ITWF/etc., he could make his whole Flurry and then some more attacks with his off-hand? Would these off-hand attacks also "benefit" from his Flurry?
You can do a flurry and only attack with your foot, or one weapon if you want. Flurry allows you to attack as if you had TWF, so you can apply TWF on top of flurry.
You would get the extra attack(s) from both - and the -2 penalty from both would apply.
In some handbook from 3.5 (I don't remember which one right now), it was said something like "Virtual Feats is when a class ability says that it works like a feat. You can use that feat as prerequisite for others, but you can use them only in the conditions the class ability allows."
I don't think Flurry should stack with TWF. A 1st-level monk able to make 4 attacks per round? A 11th-level monk able to make 10 attacks per round? Wouldn't fly...
On the other hand, I think you should be able to take feats having TWF as a prerequisite and use them during your flurries.
I don't believe they stack, either. Not anymore at least. In 3.5 it was allowed, but Paizo specifically changed the language and mechanics for FoB.
Very nice summary DM_Blake. Well done. So sadly my idea for a BBEG dual wielding spell storing temple swords in an FoB is a no-go. Shame.
Couldn't you just have 2, and stick to your straight flurry # of attacks, but divide the strikes amongst the flurries? I mean, just because you have 2 weapons in hand doesn't mean you're getting more attacks out of it.
You stick to your flurry and you have 2 wpns you want to mess with - go for it. You want to flurry AND 2-wpn fight to get more swings in, NOW it's 2-wpn fighting territory, and should be handled as such, IMO.
Bottom line: as long as your not getting more attacks than you're entitled to anyway, no penalties. That's how I rule it anyway ...
{ie: reverting to the abstract nature of the game itself}.
Couldn't you just have 2, and stick to your straight flurry # of attacks, but divide the strikes amongst the flurries? I mean, just because you have 2 weapons in hand doesn't mean you're getting more attacks out of it.
You stick to your flurry and you have 2 wpns you want to mess with - go for it. You want to flurry AND 2-wpn fight to get more swings in, NOW it's 2-wpn fighting territory, and should be handled as such, IMO.
Bottom line: as long as your not getting more attacks than you're entitled to anyway, no penalties. That's how I rule it anyway ...
{ie: reverting to the abstract nature of the game itself}.
Because of the wording change implemented by Paizo, FOB is now basically two weapon fighting (even if you only choose to use the same fist/etc. each attack). As it is two weapon fighting the extra penalty comes in for using a larger weapon (temple sword) in your off hand. In 3.5 it would work the way you say you'd rule it, the changes to PFRPG are what bring the extra penalty into play.
It says as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. It doesn't give them a bonus feat (TWF). Just like Displacement doesn't actually give concealment.
Why would it make the differentiation if they couldn't be combined?
Also Louis IX, a 1st lvl monk with TWF and FoB would get -4 to all 3 attacks - not 4. And even if he was a human and spent his bonus feat on Weapon Finesse and assuming a 20 Dex his attack would be +2.
How many times you think that's actually gonna hit? Maybe twice?
Not game-breaking by any standard, IMO.
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Well, first, there's the cheese of stacking flurry with the whole twf chain for a crazy amount of attacks.
And there are *always* ways to boost the hit chance. that extra attack at each level would really push the monk up to the high levels of damage dealers.
Heck, a 20 monk with a bab of +16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+6/+1 with a potential of dealing 20d10 before any enhancements.
The bestiary tells us that a lvl 20 monster has an average ac of 36.
Assume a starting stat of 20 str/dex whichever one you prefer.
20 +5 (level)+5 (tome) +6 (belt)
36 str or dex, which is a +13 to the attack roll.
Amulet of mighty fists +5 as well. You're up to +34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+29/+24/+24/+24/+19
With super basic level 20 gear, and a couple feats, you're looking at three attacks that won't miss, three that require a roll of 5 or better to hit, three that require a roll of 10 or so to hit, and one attack in which the odds are against the monk. :p
A fighter using power attack with a 2-handed weapon gets 4 attacks with 1.5 str modifier. A twf fighter gets 7 attacks with a 1x and .5x str modifier. The monk gets 10 attacks with str modifier.
You can't just look at one level when gauging the effects of this kind of element.
Also, since the bonus attacks are as though using twf, I'd say the same source element comes into play. Which would allow only one or the other to count. That would be the purpose of that sentence, to define that the sources are the same so they couldn't be combined.
Heck, if they stacked, I'd be playing a str-based monk with INA, enlarge, the twf chain, two-weapon rend, one level of rogue, and a certain feat that increases your sa damage a bit for every cumulative hit that applies sa damage. Mmm... I'm salivating at the thought way too much for it to be legal :D
Well, if you did have a Str of 20 as a monk, i think your AC would be shot and i can't see that build surviving too well. The fighter would be able to focus on Str and only really need or want a Dex of 20 by the end of the build. Whereas the monk is MAD as. Apart from that, i thought the official word on INA is that it doesn't stack with unarmed strikes or FoB.
I do see where you're coming from with number of attacks etc. and i don't think that the fighter should be worse off. I just think that a 20 Fighter and 20 Monk (with TWF & FoB) would be comparable only whilst the monk is flurrying. Other than that the fighter would outshine the monk in most circumstances.
If the monk put Dex as his primary stat, then yes, he'd get more attacks. But the damage isn't there compared to a fighter. If they do up their Str, then their AC will suffer.
Flurry of Blows already contains TWF.
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
I disagree that monks don't need as much strength as fighters - they need as much as they can muster: They're going to take hits regardless of their wisdom and dexterity.
But in order to dish out what they take they need to exceed the damage output of their foes.. Friendly mages and clerics should be providing Mages Armor, cat's grace, owl's wisdom and Shield until the monk can afford bracers of AC and a dancing shield.
Without, they have to be active in their defenses: combat maneuvers (which require strength)!
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Well, even comparable is a problem if you consider that the monk isn't supposed to be comparable in damage.
As always, the greater the point buy, the better the monk looks in comparison, but I think this gives the monk the opportunity to out-damage a dps-focused fighter, perhaps even significantly. I don't have time tonight, but I'll see about trying to min/max myself some lvl 20 builds to see what I can get. Just core pathfinder, I think, for the feats.
A monk just isn't going to have as good an armor class as a fighter. This is especially true now with armor mastery for the fighter, letting them squeeze the last little bits out of dex. As you approach the higher levels, at some point you just have to admit that the monks bonus is in the higher touch ac, not the higher total ac.
I posted the twf thing on the other thread, since I happened to come across it first. Might be good if we move that discussion here from this point forward :p
I think that the fighter will be similar to the monk in standard-action attacks, and will outshine him in slug-fests damage-wise. I guess I'll see later :P
I'm in the camp that monks taking Two Weapon Fighting don't gain any further benefit with their flurry. They could certainly use it with weapons that they cannot flurry with (if they happen to have other proficiencies), but when it comes to a flurry it won't do anything further.
Yes, but do you think one could use that ability as virtual prerequisite for other feats from the TWF tree? Like TWRend, for instance...
Of course, in this last case, they ought to get Double Slice first... or don't they?
If the ability specifically states that all attacks get 1x Str, and despite the fact that the feat isn't called out, does that equate the Double Slice effect?
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Well, I threw together some numbers, to see if there's a good stastical reason monks shouldn't have TWF, and here's what I came up with.
Giving both the fighter and the monk a strength of 38 (as per magic items, leveling bonuses, manuals, and an enlarge), and statting for the best core feats I could find for them, here's what I came up with.
The monk uses an amulet of mighty fists for the straight +5. The fighter uses a double weapon with two +5 heads.
The monk at level 20 has seven base attacks with flurry, ten with the twf chain, 12 with haste and a ki point.
The fighter at level 20 has 4 base attacks, 7 with twf chain, 8 with haste.
The monks' base unarmed damage at lvl 20 is 2d10. Enlarge converts it to 4d8 according to the equipment section weapon scaling chart.
The monks attack totals are as follows:
36/36/36/36/36/31/31/31/26/26/26/21
Each attack deals 4d8 (base) + 5(amulet) +14(str) for a total of 4d8+19
If they all hit, the monk deals a minimum of 276 damage, and a maximum of 626 damage.
Min: 276
Max: 626
Power attack drops the attack bonus by 4 points each, and deals an extra eight points per attack.
With Power Attack
Min: 372
Max: 722
Now, if you allow the monks robe to increase the unarmed damage according to the existing scale *which isn't needed at this point anyhow* you get with power attack
Min: 396
Max: 756
The fighter's total attack chain comes to:
+43/+43+/+43/+38/+38/+33/+33/+28
The fighter is using an Axe, orc double for 1d8/1d8. Enlarge pushes those up to 2d6. Each side is +5
The damage the fighter deals is 2d6 + 5(enhancement) +14(str) +4(spec and greater spec) +4(weapon mastery)
Total damage: 2d6 + 27
With Power Attack, Total damage is: 2d6 + 39
Min damage: 182
Max Damage 262
With Power Attack Min Damage: 328
With Power Attack Max Damage: 408
So, bottom line comparisons.
If the monk doesn't power attack, and the fighter does, their attack bonuses are pretty comparable.
Their damage, however, is not. The monk is running a possible maximum of 626 damage, while the fighter is only running a possible maximum of 408.
Note that the average ac of a cr 20 creature, as per the bestiary, is 36. Thus, the non-power attacking fighter is going to hit with the first five attacks, needs a 3 on the next two, and an 8 on the last one. Probably going to hit 7 out of 8 times each round.
The non-power attacking monk will hit with the first five attacks, need a 5 on the next three, a 10 on the three after that, and a 15 on the last one.
Probably going to hit 8 or 9 out of 12. I can think of a few non-core feats that would make the monk soo much more dangerous too :p
Again, we've already got the answer that monks can't flurry and use twf, but picture this and imagine if they could... :p
I've conceeded that the official response from Jason overrules what i was saying in the other thread. You've got a good point as well from your stat-up, but my concern is still if you're maxing out Str will that character even survive? But regardless, as per RAW (and Paizo) FoB and TWF don't stack.
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Yup, mentioned that we got the answer a couple times in the post :P
This was more *I've done the work already, so I might as well put it up*
Though survivability is a very valid question for the build. A lvl 20 monster has a high attack roll of 30.
Again, I'm getting these stats from page 291 of the bestiary.
It also has a high fort save of +22 for the mean ones.
The monk will have, say, a starting wisdom of 12. Assuming the +6 mental stat headband, he ends with an 18 wisdom.
His stunning fist dc is going to be 22. 10+1/2 level + wis. So if the monk makes his first attack a stunning fist, it'll hit and it'll stun the creature. Now the monk doesn't have to avoid any hits at all.
Alternatively, assuming the physical trinity stat belt, and a dex of 19, you've got a dex of 23. *minus two from the enlarge*
The dex is 19 because that's whats required for the twf feat. Thus, I assumed both the fighter and the monk had requisite high scores. In a real game, the difference between the two would pull bonuses out of str to boost dex, resulting in a larger penalty against the fighter for damage, and a larger monk penalty for the to-hit.
Anyhow, dex of 23, wisdom of 18, and class ac bonus of +5 and you're at an ac of 25. Pick up bracers of armor +8, and natural armor +5 and you're at ac 38.
So if you go first, you've got 20 rounds to kill it. If it goes first, it's got two, maybe three hits that are likely to connect. Then you go, it's stunned, and off again :p
*sigh* I'm going to miss the azucar monk :p
Of course, the fighter will outshine the monk in ac. And instead of stunning fist, the fighter will be tripping, disarming, sundering, and so on :)
It's an interesting comparison fer sure. When I DM i'll probably still allow it tho cuz i don't think it's really that bad.
Fighter = Monk flurrying = Paladin smiting = Ranger attacking FE; meh.
It also has a high fort save of +22 for the mean ones.
The monk will have, say, a starting wisdom of 12. Assuming the +6 mental stat headband, he ends with an 18 wisdom.
His stunning fist dc is going to be 22. 10+1/2 level + wis. So if the monk makes his first attack a stunning fist, it'll hit and it'll stun the creature. Now the monk doesn't have to avoid any hits at all.
Not sure about this. Let's say 20th lvl monk has a wisdom of 18. Stunning Fist DC will be 10 + 10 (1/2 lvl) + 4 (Wis bns) = 24.
CR 20 monster's save is 22. Unless the DM rolls a 1 (which auto-fails) the monster's gonna save. No?
*sigh* I'm going to miss the azucar monk :p
What's that? Sounds pretty cool.
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Bleh, yeah, that was just a blank-mind moment.
Azucar is spanish for sugar.
As in the crazy-caffeinated-sugaredup-hyper-monk.
I just think Azucar monk sounds better :D
Actually, the really fun stuff is if you can add a few non-pathfinder core feats.
Take the rokugan feats to add up to 5d6 sneak attack damage *one feat per*. There's an undefeatable feat that boosts your damage based off of consecutive hits. I don't want to go too into detail with that one, since I'm pretty sure I'm not allowed to be specific about it :p
Anyhow, overall it can potentially add another 300 points of damage or so to the monk's damage each round. Yay! :D