If you interact with it once and fail your save, do you get to save against the illusion every time you interact with it again, or are you stuck believing the illusion unless you get incontrovertible proof or are told by someone else that it is an illusion?
What counts as an interaction? Every action a person can take against an illusion in a round? Every attack (so a full round action that is 2 attacks would merit two saving throws?) Do attacks on the illusion that miss count as interactions? Do "attacks" by a figment that "miss" count as interactions?
This is a confusing topic. Get ready for some nitpicking and hairsplitting.
When you say illusions, you really mean figments, glamers, patterns, phantasms, and shadows. I'm going to limit this discussion to figments, since (I think) that's what you mean.
First the rules:
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment's AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see. Third parties viewing or studying the scene don't notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.
Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
So to break up your post:
If you interact with it once and fail your save, do you get to save against the illusion every time you interact with it again, or are you stuck believing the illusion unless you get incontrovertible proof or are told by someone else that it is an illusion?
Just because you fail "to notice something is amiss" doesn't mean you're permanently convinced of something. Your save just failed. You can retry the save by spending an action to study or interact with the figment.
What counts as an interaction? Every action a person can take against an illusion in a round? Every attack (so a full round action that is 2 attacks would merit two saving throws?) Do attacks on the illusion that miss count as interactions? Do "attacks" by a figment that "miss" count as interactions?
The short answer is: whatever your GM desires, except you generally need to spend an action to do the interaction. There's no hard and fast rules here, except what is provided in the spell description text. Read this text carefully.
I would say attacking a figment definitely would get an interaction. If you hit a silent/minor/illusory wall/major image that isn't being concentrated on, you should immediately get automatic disbelief (your sword goes through it). If you're using a major image equivalent that is being concentrated on, you can "cause the illusion to react appropriately" and not automatically disbelieve -- but you still get a save for disbelief.
A full attack of two swings against a major image being concentrated on to "react appropriately" to attacks would indeed merit two saves (assuming you failed the first save on the first attack).
Even if the attack misses (either by you or the figment), you still get an interaction save. The save happens after the attack roll.
As a side note, generally hearing a figment's sound effects *do not* count purely as interaction (neither do thermal effects/smells/etc). However, ventriloquism does get a disbelief save from anyone hearing it. Minor image and up does not get an interaction save versus the sound. If you spend a standard action listening carefully, that's careful study (which does get a save).
While it's not highly regarded in PF, do a google search for Rules of the Game Illusions Part One Two Three Four to see how an original designer of D&D 3.X handled illusions.
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When you say illusions, you really mean figments, glamers, patterns, phantasms, and shadows. I'm going to limit this discussion to figments, since (I think) that's what you mean.I meant figments, but I suppose this discussion would also include shadows.
It amazes me that after so many decades the answer still amounts to "ask your GM" :)
Why? No two games are run exactly the same.
It amazes me that after so many decades the answer still amounts to "ask your GM" :)
Yeah, that's about right. The problem is that many GMs don't read/comprehend the text as written, so you have to explain everything to them and *then* let them make judgment calls q:
If you interact with it once and fail your save, do you get to save against the illusion every time you interact with it again, or are you stuck believing the illusion unless you get incontrovertible proof or are told by someone else that it is an illusion?
I'm digging up this thread and hitting FAQ because this just came up in last nights game. I have searched several extensive threads about illusions (and Skip Williams articles) and there seems to be no general consensus.
It seems that GM's who allow only a single save upon first interacting with the illusion allow automatic disbelief when direct physical contact is made with the illusion, while those who rule for a save each time an action is spent interacting with the illusion are stricter about automatic disbelief.
Things get a little more complex when you add spells that affect a large area like hallucinatory terrain and even tactile elements like mirage arcana. Does walking within the area of the spell count as interacting with the illusion?
But I don't want that last question to distract from the FAQ request- Do you get to make a save each time you interact with an illusion, or only upon first interaction, then you only get another save if someone tells you it's an illusion, or you have proof.
It amazes me that after so many decades the answer still amounts to "ask your GM" :)Sometimes the best tool for a particular job is found very early on in the existence of that job - hammers, for example, haven't changed all that much in a very long time either.
In my case, it is the GM asking the question.
As for the hammer analogy, I would say that back when the only option was sending a letter to the "ask the sage" column and hoping for a printed response in Dragon magazine, then the GM was really the only option. Today, new tools exist that I can find out not only the answer, but also the intent of the rules from the designers and the developers of the game, making the game system better for other GM's out there as well. While I could still use a hammer to drive a nail, I could get the job done much faster using a nailgun.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take the GM out of the equation, I'm trying to allow GM's to make more informed decisions aligned with the intents of the designers of the system.
Fergie, out of curiosity, could you link the Skip Williams articles regarding illusions?
Again, it's not a PF ruling, but if it's useful to you, take a gander.
Fergie, out of curiosity, could you link the Skip Williams articles regarding illusions?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a
I recommend just typing, "All About Illusions" into your favorite search engine and using those links as I think the ones on the wizard site are tough to find.
Thanks, saved me from having to hunt for them.